9 ms·

I remember when Mercedes Benz bought Freightliner, the major US truck manufacturer,in the 80s. The Mercedes Benz engineeers were astonished to see how UN-sophis

by jbkiv 5y ago

I remember when Mercedes Benz bought Freightliner, the major US truck manufacturer,in the 80s. The Mercedes Benz engineeers were astonished to see how UN-sophisticated the engineering of Freightliner trucks was. Example: no assisted steering!!! That choice was justified as more macho. I was told that assisted steering was not manly enough...

kfarr 5y ago
There can be value in simplicity - fewer things to break and easier to repair.
- CountSessine 5y ago
  Exactly. The irony of Mercedes-Benz engineers marveling at how unsophisticated a simply-engineered vehicle is brought a smile to my face. Most owner-operator truck drivers want to be able to fix and maintain their trucks on their own, not bring the truck into the dealer every 3 months like some temperamental S-class. Although I guess Mercedes was still pretty reliable back in the 80's.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    MB trucks are an entirely different kettle of fish than the consumer and light transport stuff. It all changes above the 3500 kg mark.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      In the US their Sprinters compare to the competition about the same way an S-class compares to a Camry. In both cases it's generally considered ill-advised to own it into old age. I wouldn't call that "entirely different"
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Sprinters routinely clock half a million K. You need to maintain them but that goes for all vehicles. And they are still below that 3500 kg limit. It really starts at Atego: https://www.mercedes-benz-trucks.com/nl_NL/models/atego-construction.html https://www.mercedes-benz-trucks.com/nl_NL/models/atego-cons...
        throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        If the Sprinter took a comparable amount of maintenance to deliver the same service it would not have the reputation it does. It's not like people are jumping to conclusions based on brand either. It was initially branded as a Dodge or Freighter/Sterling. The only operators who like it are high end passenger fleets that depreciate them and then get new ones. Now, in its defense, people do generally hate the FWD Fiat van more...
        jacquesm 5y ago
        I've seen some of this. People were bitching about their MBs not lasting long enough: turns out they were skimping on the oil, using regular oil rather than the synthetic oil those engines need. Synthetic oil is a lot more expensive but it lasts much longer. But America likes its oil changes, every ridiculously low number of miles because they believe that is what will make their cars last, rather than to use quality oil to begin with. MB engines are indestructible if treated properly, they routinely outlast the body of the vehicles, they have oversized oil pumps, use chains rather than timing belts (a common failure point) and in general are designed to last. There is plenty wrong with MB, their electronics absolutely suck and don't get me started on their software or their over priced parts. But their engines are solid.
  - cycomanic 5y ago
    You really think that owner operators repair their own trucks? That doesn't make any economic sense. This is not a hobby, they need to drive to make money not to play truck repairman. I'm always astonished how US Americans try to justify poor engineering with "advantage of simplicity". It's like arguing that you want to program using punch cards because that makes you feel closer to the machine and you have a "physical" copy of your programs.
    - BenjiWiebe 5y ago
      Yep, owner operators repair their own trucks. Sometimes even fairly major engine work. However, you can have well-engineered simplicity, too, and that seems to be rare. (As opposed to poorly engineered simplicity or highly engineered complexity.)
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      There are many areas of the US where a truck driver might find themself hours away from a mechanic or tow truck. I assume there is some value in fixability, assuming the reliability is not too much less than a less fixable truck.
    - stevehawk 5y ago
      Do they want to spend their time doing it? No. Do they have a choice in most of the country? No. Trucks don't conveniently break down at the mechanic's shop.
    - sumtechguy 5y ago
      Simplicity also means less time in the shop when needed too, they usually charge by the hour. Also in the 80s I could totally see that. On the side of the road, hood up fix it right there. Remember they probably had CB radio which is limited range, no phone and the closest town is 50 miles behind you. Also depending on the job it can make very good economic sense to DIY. My brother in law just had to fix something on his car. They quoted him 2500. He fixed it himself for about the cost of some used parts (80 bucks) and a half day of his time. Trucks are no different.
    - CountSessine 5y ago
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    Actually, I think the irony is the other way around. I've read that worldwide, MB vehicles dominate many markets (e.g. African taxi and trucking) precisely because they are so easy to do local non-dealer maintainance on. Most of the world thinks of many MB vehicles as workhorses, not luxury or sophisticated vehicles.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      Yes, MB deliberately cultivated a "luxury" brand image in the US and did not import very many of the "workhorse" models (the ones with smaller engines, manual transmissions, and few options) that the rest world knows.
    - CountSessine 5y ago
      I've often wondered about this. Here in North America we only get the Mercedes models that need their disc rotors replaced every 30k, and we see nothing of the indestructible and serviceable models that seem to wind up in places without posh MB dealerships. I've always thought that this was because NA has air pollution laws that are strictly and honestly enforced and that that would make diesel cars difficult to offer.
      - xxpor 5y ago
        >I've always thought that this was because NA has air pollution laws that are strictly and honestly enforced and that that would make diesel cars difficult to offer. Yes, the US regulates NOx emissions much more than Europe. This makes it very hard to offer passenger diesel engines in the US. On the other hand, the EU regulates/taxes CO2 emissions, which the US does only indirectly through CAFE (fuel efficiency) regulations.
        oblio 5y ago
        How is US fuel efficiency, though? In Europe cars using 5 liters per 100 km (~48 miles per gallon for the SI-resistant amongst us) are very common.
  - Teknoman117 5y ago
    There days Mercedes doesn't really export non-luxury vehicles to the US except for maybe sprinter vans.
- iSnow 5y ago
  That's not something a German engineer will easily understand, though :)
anarazel 5y ago
The noise level of some US trucks still surprises me. Jet engine like.
- LinuxBender 5y ago
  If it's when they are slowing down it's likely the jake-brakes j-brakes you are hearing especially if they have straight pipes. Diesel engines don't have engine braking by design so a mechanism was added to the heads to create artificial engine braking that can be toggled on per head. [ Edit for clarification: ] I have created some confusion with this statement. For clarification diesel engines never had engine braking due to the lack of a throttle plate but this has been worked around with add-ons using different techniques. On a big-rig this is jake-brakes. On smaller modern vehicles this is usually a small turbo or an exhaust baffle. The operator of a modern diesel vehicle will effectively experience engine braking when they let off the throttle. On older diesel pickups and cars there was no engine braking.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >>Diesel engines don't have engine braking by design First time I hear about this. I've driven and owned plenty of diesel vehicles in my life and diesel engines definitely do have engine braking(unless it's different in semis? but I don't see why it would be - just leave it in gear and let it slow down?)
    - LinuxBender 5y ago
      The engine itself has no braking due to the lack of the variable air-intake that gasoline engines have that would otherwise starve the engine for air especially when downshifting and closing the throttle. Specifically on non-big-rigs, modern diesel cars and pickups create engine braking using a small turbo and tighten the spline or in some cases have an exhaust feedback baffle or flap, varies with year/model. Big rigs still use jake-brakes.
      - jbkiv 5y ago
EricE 5y ago
Extra crap = extra weight. Extra crap = extra complexity = extra maintenance costs. "Sophistication" does not always equal better! More macho - what a laugh! Keep it stupid simple.
- gambiting 5y ago
  But also extra effort from the driver = more tired driver, higher chance of accident, more mistakes and issues with every delivery. I have not driven a truck like that personally, but I know what sort of difference all the modern assistance systems have done on my cross-continental drives. Previously a 12 hour drive would leave me absolutely exhausted, like I'd need a full day to recover after that - in a modern car with lane assist and adaptive cruise and comfortable seats and what not - I arrive relaxed every time. Long dull stretches of road don't take such a mental toll anymore. I imagine the exact same principle applies to trucks.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    In my 30s and 40's I could drive 14-16hrs a day without a problem, in a stick-shift car, in the USA. In my 50s, 10hrs is still reasonably OK. However, a 4 or 5 hour drive on roads in the UK in an automatic modern car and I am completely exhausted. At least for some of us, the road conditions are a far larger impact than the features of the vehicle.
    - davidw 5y ago
      Absolutely! We visited family in Italy last summer, and had an all-day drive. Just constant attention and input, compared to cruising along some 2 lane road in the US. Cars coming up behind you, whizzing by you. A slow old car up ahead. Big truck to pass. Tight curve. Road narrows. Road widens. Some dude in a BMW riding your bumper. For like 8 hours... I was so glad to get out of the car. If it hadn't been for the pandemic, I would have much rather taken a train and relaxed.
      - gambiting 5y ago
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
It's really easy to spin a naive fanboy (of a particular brand, technology or otherwise) narrative like this and when you aim your tropes ("ze backwards yankees") right at audience's bias you're sure to get a bunch of virtue points in response. The fact of the matter is that there's very, very, few secrets in the automotive and heavy equipment industries. If someone is or isn't doing something it's because they've run the numbers and they don't think it pencils out for what they build and who they sell to.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  It's really easy to spin a naive fanboy narrative like this and when you aim your tropes right at audience's bias you're sure to get a bunch of virtue points in response. That's one of the big problems with internet blogs. They do a bunch of Googling and speculation and that's it. Laughably, they sometimes they even call themselves "journalists." How hard would it have been to go to a truck stop and sit at the counter and ask some truckers? They know all about trucks. And after being along all day, truckers love to talk. If you're afraid of people, get a $10 CB radio from Goodwill and talk to them on the radio.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Yeah, but those people are perhaps the worst to get insight on the industry from. For instance, most truck drivers in the US haven't driven a Scania truck (and flipped for the EU). They can't give you comparative information, so everyone's natural tendency to defend their choice will give you a bunch of rationalizations that you can falsely assume to be reasons. It's the same as how you could ask people why SF doesn't have gigabit fiber Internet for $60 when Bucharest does for $30, and people on the Internet will make up all sorts of reasons. However, SF does have gigabit fiber Internet. Explaining is easy. Truth-seeking is hard.
brudgers 5y ago
Historically, Freightliner’s reputation was for driving fast…and you would be prudent to get out of the way when one was coming into the mirrors. Speed perhaps explains the lack of power steering. In multiple ways.
- potamic 5y ago
  What does speed have to do with power steering?

by jbkiv 5y ago

kfarr 5y ago

There can be value in simplicity - fewer things to break and easier to repair.

CountSessine 5y ago
Exactly. The irony of Mercedes-Benz engineers marveling at how unsophisticated a simply-engineered vehicle is brought a smile to my face. Most owner-operator truck drivers want to be able to fix and maintain their trucks on their own, not bring the truck into the dealer every 3 months like some temperamental S-class. Although I guess Mercedes was still pretty reliable back in the 80's.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  MB trucks are an entirely different kettle of fish than the consumer and light transport stuff. It all changes above the 3500 kg mark.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    In the US their Sprinters compare to the competition about the same way an S-class compares to a Camry. In both cases it's generally considered ill-advised to own it into old age. I wouldn't call that "entirely different"
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Sprinters routinely clock half a million K. You need to maintain them but that goes for all vehicles. And they are still below that 3500 kg limit. It really starts at Atego: https://www.mercedes-benz-trucks.com/nl_NL/models/atego-construction.html https://www.mercedes-benz-trucks.com/nl_NL/models/atego-cons...
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        If the Sprinter took a comparable amount of maintenance to deliver the same service it would not have the reputation it does. It's not like people are jumping to conclusions based on brand either. It was initially branded as a Dodge or Freighter/Sterling. The only operators who like it are high end passenger fleets that depreciate them and then get new ones. Now, in its defense, people do generally hate the FWD Fiat van more...
        jacquesm 5y ago
        I've seen some of this. People were bitching about their MBs not lasting long enough: turns out they were skimping on the oil, using regular oil rather than the synthetic oil those engines need. Synthetic oil is a lot more expensive but it lasts much longer. But America likes its oil changes, every ridiculously low number of miles because they believe that is what will make their cars last, rather than to use quality oil to begin with. MB engines are indestructible if treated properly, they routinely outlast the body of the vehicles, they have oversized oil pumps, use chains rather than timing belts (a common failure point) and in general are designed to last. There is plenty wrong with MB, their electronics absolutely suck and don't get me started on their software or their over priced parts. But their engines are solid.
- cycomanic 5y ago
  You really think that owner operators repair their own trucks? That doesn't make any economic sense. This is not a hobby, they need to drive to make money not to play truck repairman. I'm always astonished how US Americans try to justify poor engineering with "advantage of simplicity". It's like arguing that you want to program using punch cards because that makes you feel closer to the machine and you have a "physical" copy of your programs.
  - BenjiWiebe 5y ago
    Yep, owner operators repair their own trucks. Sometimes even fairly major engine work. However, you can have well-engineered simplicity, too, and that seems to be rare. (As opposed to poorly engineered simplicity or highly engineered complexity.)
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    There are many areas of the US where a truck driver might find themself hours away from a mechanic or tow truck. I assume there is some value in fixability, assuming the reliability is not too much less than a less fixable truck.
  - stevehawk 5y ago
    Do they want to spend their time doing it? No. Do they have a choice in most of the country? No. Trucks don't conveniently break down at the mechanic's shop.
  - sumtechguy 5y ago
    Simplicity also means less time in the shop when needed too, they usually charge by the hour. Also in the 80s I could totally see that. On the side of the road, hood up fix it right there. Remember they probably had CB radio which is limited range, no phone and the closest town is 50 miles behind you. Also depending on the job it can make very good economic sense to DIY. My brother in law just had to fix something on his car. They quoted him 2500. He fixed it himself for about the cost of some used parts (80 bucks) and a half day of his time. Trucks are no different.
  - CountSessine 5y ago
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  Actually, I think the irony is the other way around. I've read that worldwide, MB vehicles dominate many markets (e.g. African taxi and trucking) precisely because they are so easy to do local non-dealer maintainance on. Most of the world thinks of many MB vehicles as workhorses, not luxury or sophisticated vehicles.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Yes, MB deliberately cultivated a "luxury" brand image in the US and did not import very many of the "workhorse" models (the ones with smaller engines, manual transmissions, and few options) that the rest world knows.
  - CountSessine 5y ago
    I've often wondered about this. Here in North America we only get the Mercedes models that need their disc rotors replaced every 30k, and we see nothing of the indestructible and serviceable models that seem to wind up in places without posh MB dealerships. I've always thought that this was because NA has air pollution laws that are strictly and honestly enforced and that that would make diesel cars difficult to offer.
    - xxpor 5y ago
      >I've always thought that this was because NA has air pollution laws that are strictly and honestly enforced and that that would make diesel cars difficult to offer. Yes, the US regulates NOx emissions much more than Europe. This makes it very hard to offer passenger diesel engines in the US. On the other hand, the EU regulates/taxes CO2 emissions, which the US does only indirectly through CAFE (fuel efficiency) regulations.
      - oblio 5y ago
        How is US fuel efficiency, though? In Europe cars using 5 liters per 100 km (~48 miles per gallon for the SI-resistant amongst us) are very common.
- Teknoman117 5y ago
  There days Mercedes doesn't really export non-luxury vehicles to the US except for maybe sprinter vans.
iSnow 5y ago
That's not something a German engineer will easily understand, though :)

anarazel 5y ago

The noise level of some US trucks still surprises me. Jet engine like.

LinuxBender 5y ago
If it's when they are slowing down it's likely the jake-brakes j-brakes you are hearing especially if they have straight pipes. Diesel engines don't have engine braking by design so a mechanism was added to the heads to create artificial engine braking that can be toggled on per head. [ Edit for clarification: ] I have created some confusion with this statement. For clarification diesel engines never had engine braking due to the lack of a throttle plate but this has been worked around with add-ons using different techniques. On a big-rig this is jake-brakes. On smaller modern vehicles this is usually a small turbo or an exhaust baffle. The operator of a modern diesel vehicle will effectively experience engine braking when they let off the throttle. On older diesel pickups and cars there was no engine braking.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>Diesel engines don't have engine braking by design First time I hear about this. I've driven and owned plenty of diesel vehicles in my life and diesel engines definitely do have engine braking(unless it's different in semis? but I don't see why it would be - just leave it in gear and let it slow down?)
  - LinuxBender 5y ago
    The engine itself has no braking due to the lack of the variable air-intake that gasoline engines have that would otherwise starve the engine for air especially when downshifting and closing the throttle. Specifically on non-big-rigs, modern diesel cars and pickups create engine braking using a small turbo and tighten the spline or in some cases have an exhaust feedback baffle or flap, varies with year/model. Big rigs still use jake-brakes.
    - jbkiv 5y ago

EricE 5y ago

Extra crap = extra weight. Extra crap = extra complexity = extra maintenance costs. "Sophistication" does not always equal better! More macho - what a laugh! Keep it stupid simple.

gambiting 5y ago
But also extra effort from the driver = more tired driver, higher chance of accident, more mistakes and issues with every delivery. I have not driven a truck like that personally, but I know what sort of difference all the modern assistance systems have done on my cross-continental drives. Previously a 12 hour drive would leave me absolutely exhausted, like I'd need a full day to recover after that - in a modern car with lane assist and adaptive cruise and comfortable seats and what not - I arrive relaxed every time. Long dull stretches of road don't take such a mental toll anymore. I imagine the exact same principle applies to trucks.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  In my 30s and 40's I could drive 14-16hrs a day without a problem, in a stick-shift car, in the USA. In my 50s, 10hrs is still reasonably OK. However, a 4 or 5 hour drive on roads in the UK in an automatic modern car and I am completely exhausted. At least for some of us, the road conditions are a far larger impact than the features of the vehicle.
  - davidw 5y ago
    Absolutely! We visited family in Italy last summer, and had an all-day drive. Just constant attention and input, compared to cruising along some 2 lane road in the US. Cars coming up behind you, whizzing by you. A slow old car up ahead. Big truck to pass. Tight curve. Road narrows. Road widens. Some dude in a BMW riding your bumper. For like 8 hours... I was so glad to get out of the car. If it hadn't been for the pandemic, I would have much rather taken a train and relaxed.
    - gambiting 5y ago

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

It's really easy to spin a naive fanboy (of a particular brand, technology or otherwise) narrative like this and when you aim your tropes ("ze backwards yankees") right at audience's bias you're sure to get a bunch of virtue points in response. The fact of the matter is that there's very, very, few secrets in the automotive and heavy equipment industries. If someone is or isn't doing something it's because they've run the numbers and they don't think it pencils out for what they build and who they sell to.

reaperducer 5y ago
It's really easy to spin a naive fanboy narrative like this and when you aim your tropes right at audience's bias you're sure to get a bunch of virtue points in response. That's one of the big problems with internet blogs. They do a bunch of Googling and speculation and that's it. Laughably, they sometimes they even call themselves "journalists." How hard would it have been to go to a truck stop and sit at the counter and ask some truckers? They know all about trucks. And after being along all day, truckers love to talk. If you're afraid of people, get a $10 CB radio from Goodwill and talk to them on the radio.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  Yeah, but those people are perhaps the worst to get insight on the industry from. For instance, most truck drivers in the US haven't driven a Scania truck (and flipped for the EU). They can't give you comparative information, so everyone's natural tendency to defend their choice will give you a bunch of rationalizations that you can falsely assume to be reasons. It's the same as how you could ask people why SF doesn't have gigabit fiber Internet for $60 when Bucharest does for $30, and people on the Internet will make up all sorts of reasons. However, SF does have gigabit fiber Internet. Explaining is easy. Truth-seeking is hard.

brudgers 5y ago

Historically, Freightliner’s reputation was for driving fast…and you would be prudent to get out of the way when one was coming into the mirrors. Speed perhaps explains the lack of power steering. In multiple ways.

potamic 5y ago
What does speed have to do with power steering?