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Ignored? By whom? I am not a virologist, but actual virologists sure talked about T-cells in public forums. Or moreover, that we have to have some degree of hum

Ignored? By whom? I am not a virologist, but actual virologists sure talked about T-cells in public forums. Or moreover, that we have to have some degree of humility about exactly what are the correlates of immunity for this disease. https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/ https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/ And this podcast had Fauci on, so it’s not like they weren’t some degree of notable within the immunological academic sphere. I think it’s time for Hanlon's Razor here. Antibodies were easy to measure. Antibodies probably meant people wouldn’t get sick and wouldn’t spread this. So policy makers, being in a tremendous rush, really glommed onto antibodies, and just got stuck in that mindset, because it’s hard to turn a ship around. I don’t know where there would be a conspiracy—it’s just that this whole thing is complex, and politicians are not virologists.

cloutchaser 5y ago
> it’s just that this whole thing is complex, and politicians are not virologists What's really really really bad is that the entire narrative has been built on "we are science, follow us, if you don't, you are an idiot, you are endangering others" Except science is much more nuanced, and hey, it turns out t-cells do things too not just antibodies (of course this was known pre 2020). Maybe if communication on this issue wasn't turned so black and white, and us vs them, by the media and politicians, we'd be in a better place now. But they didn't do that, they turned this into politics too.
- nefitty 5y ago
  Yes, thank you! Just because I only have a high school degree does not mean my opinion is not as valid as a medical professional's. Wait. No, that doesn't make sense at all actually... Hm.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    I believe it was Asimov that lamented "the problem with democracy is that my ignorance is as valuable as your knowledge".
- VikingCoder 5y ago
  > "they turned this into politics too." Politics is the discussion of how we should behave. How could this possibly have not become politics? When you're lost at sea, you're an idiot if you don't row with everyone else, in the direction that the navigator thinks is right.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    This "everything is politics" line really needs to die. It's completely ignoring what people actually mean when they say "turned political" -- that people focus more on scoring points and amplifying divisions instead of the overall welfare of groups and individuals.
    - cloutchaser 5y ago
      Maybe I should have said "tribal" instead of "turned political". Because that's what manipulative politicians do and it's what everyone hates and loves about politics.
      - spookthesunset 5y ago
        I think you are right. It isn't politics, it is mostly tribalism. Us vs. "the others".
    - VikingCoder 5y ago
      I don't think "everything is politics." I think the government needs a response to a global pandemic. Which is politics. And you said "they turned this into politics," and I think you meant to say, "they turned this partisan." Or "it became politically divisive." Yes, it's unfortunate that the two parties here in the U.S. did not agree about how to handle the global pandemic. People from both parties would tell you they were absolutely trying to care for the overall welfare of everyone. And they just disagreed about how to do it. I'm just personally horrified that we don't even agree about how to measure reality. Really fundamental questions like, "Is Covid more contagious and more deadly than the flu?" "Is the vaccine safe?" "Is your risk of myocarditis greater if you get the vaccine, or if you are infected with Covid?" "Does the vaccine put a chip in your body?" "Does the vaccine turn you magnetic?" "Did 5G cause Covid?" "Is this medication effective at preventing or treating Covid?" Like, the leaders of our political parties don't apparently agree about how to measure the answers to those questions. Or they're not effectively leading the people in their party to follow that decision. Basically, we're totally hosed.
- mikeyjk 5y ago
  I feel like I've missed the context leading to this perspective. Where was the discourse on t-cells shut down?
  - kenjackson 5y ago
    Exactly. I feel like there are people who see people being shut down, but it hasn't happened in any venue I'm familiar with.
    - cloutchaser 5y ago
      The entire debate about natural immunity was shut down. No, you need the vaccine, was the argument for a long time. It was also ignored in mandates in many countries. The entire basis of this is that T-cell immunity is ignored, and only sky high antibodies caused by the vaccine offer any protection for future infection.
      - kenjackson 5y ago
        Can you point me to an article in NEJM or Nature (or another respected publication) that said any of this?
        spookthesunset 5y ago
        It wasn't in the journals. It was in the media and in discussions with others. PS: The fact it is hard to talk find sources is because it was all shut down.
        kenjackson 5y ago
        You do realize the media can say whatever they want? MSNBC can go one way and Fox News can go the other way. Their audiences don't shut down the other...
        spookthesunset 5y ago
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  Unfortunately, policy makers communicate to the public with the expectation that they have a seventh grade reading level.

cloutchaser 5y ago

> it’s just that this whole thing is complex, and politicians are not virologists What's really really really bad is that the entire narrative has been built on "we are science, follow us, if you don't, you are an idiot, you are endangering others" Except science is much more nuanced, and hey, it turns out t-cells do things too not just antibodies (of course this was known pre 2020). Maybe if communication on this issue wasn't turned so black and white, and us vs them, by the media and politicians, we'd be in a better place now. But they didn't do that, they turned this into politics too.

nefitty 5y ago
Yes, thank you! Just because I only have a high school degree does not mean my opinion is not as valid as a medical professional's. Wait. No, that doesn't make sense at all actually... Hm.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  I believe it was Asimov that lamented "the problem with democracy is that my ignorance is as valuable as your knowledge".
VikingCoder 5y ago
> "they turned this into politics too." Politics is the discussion of how we should behave. How could this possibly have not become politics? When you're lost at sea, you're an idiot if you don't row with everyone else, in the direction that the navigator thinks is right.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  This "everything is politics" line really needs to die. It's completely ignoring what people actually mean when they say "turned political" -- that people focus more on scoring points and amplifying divisions instead of the overall welfare of groups and individuals.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    Maybe I should have said "tribal" instead of "turned political". Because that's what manipulative politicians do and it's what everyone hates and loves about politics.
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      I think you are right. It isn't politics, it is mostly tribalism. Us vs. "the others".
  - VikingCoder 5y ago
    I don't think "everything is politics." I think the government needs a response to a global pandemic. Which is politics. And you said "they turned this into politics," and I think you meant to say, "they turned this partisan." Or "it became politically divisive." Yes, it's unfortunate that the two parties here in the U.S. did not agree about how to handle the global pandemic. People from both parties would tell you they were absolutely trying to care for the overall welfare of everyone. And they just disagreed about how to do it. I'm just personally horrified that we don't even agree about how to measure reality. Really fundamental questions like, "Is Covid more contagious and more deadly than the flu?" "Is the vaccine safe?" "Is your risk of myocarditis greater if you get the vaccine, or if you are infected with Covid?" "Does the vaccine put a chip in your body?" "Does the vaccine turn you magnetic?" "Did 5G cause Covid?" "Is this medication effective at preventing or treating Covid?" Like, the leaders of our political parties don't apparently agree about how to measure the answers to those questions. Or they're not effectively leading the people in their party to follow that decision. Basically, we're totally hosed.
mikeyjk 5y ago
I feel like I've missed the context leading to this perspective. Where was the discourse on t-cells shut down?
- kenjackson 5y ago
  Exactly. I feel like there are people who see people being shut down, but it hasn't happened in any venue I'm familiar with.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    The entire debate about natural immunity was shut down. No, you need the vaccine, was the argument for a long time. It was also ignored in mandates in many countries. The entire basis of this is that T-cell immunity is ignored, and only sky high antibodies caused by the vaccine offer any protection for future infection.
    - kenjackson 5y ago
      Can you point me to an article in NEJM or Nature (or another respected publication) that said any of this?
      - spookthesunset 5y ago
        It wasn't in the journals. It was in the media and in discussions with others. PS: The fact it is hard to talk find sources is because it was all shut down.
        kenjackson 5y ago
        You do realize the media can say whatever they want? MSNBC can go one way and Fox News can go the other way. Their audiences don't shut down the other...
        spookthesunset 5y ago
germinalphrase 5y ago
Unfortunately, policy makers communicate to the public with the expectation that they have a seventh grade reading level.