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There will never be a "normal" housing market until the government starts to treat it as the food market. That is, as an absolute life necessity that needs to t

There will never be a "normal" housing market until the government starts to treat it as the food market. That is, as an absolute life necessity that needs to to be heavily regulated and subsidized to ensure everyone has access.

xibalba 5y ago
Over regulation is a big part of how this mess was created in the first place. Go read about Stockholm’s housing U̶t̶o̶p̶i̶a̶ hellscape to see the future you’d create.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  "Over regulation" is an absurd concept: laws are not simply "not enough" or "too much". What really matters is *what* is allowed and prohibited and who benefits from it. In many countries regulatory capture led to building and zoning laws that serve to the interest of large investors groups as well as small speculators. People who have a home as necessity rather than an investment are put at a disadvantage.
  - pmorici 5y ago
    Wether you like it or not owning a home is always an investment. Perhaps not a good one but an investment non the less. To act like there are two types of people and that one disadvantaging the other because of their preference is silly.
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      No. You are confusing the primary purpose being an investment and being a dwelling. The intentions and behavior of the buyer can be profoundly different. Unsurprisingly, most countries have different regulations for first home buyer VS local investors VS foreign investors. If anything it's silly not wanting to acknowledge the difference. Or perhaps a bit cheeky.
      - pmorici 5y ago
        Unless the owner is letting the property sit empty it isn’t going to have an effect on the supply/ demand balance of housing. Where you live is always going to have financial consequences that can’t be ignored.
        goodpoint 5y ago
        > Unless the owner is letting the property sit empty ...which happens all the time, especially with large speculative investors. > it isn’t going to have an effect Besides, it's also plain wrong, obviously. Owners have an effect on the occupancy rate. The same house can be occupied by 2, 3 or 4 for example.
- mmarq 5y ago
  The only housing hellscape I had to deal with in my entire life has been renting in London. Thank God I finally managed to buy a flat, but I’ve been at risk of homelessness with a solid 6-digit salary, because landlords can evict you with 1 month notice for no reason (so guess what happens if the fridge breaks and they don’t want to replace it). Renters are vetted more than somebody who requested a mortgage, are not expected to have any privacy and may not pass the reference check if they had a severe disease (say cancer). The state of disrepair is appalling, professionals live in places where Sweden, as you mentioned Stockholm, wouldn’t house criminals or recovering addicts (as in somebody who can’t pay rent). Going from this hellscape to whatever is going on in Stockholm would definitely be an improvement.
  - xibalba 5y ago
    > Going from this hellscape to whatever is going on in Stockholm would definitely be an improvement Are you sure?: "Sweden has not built enough rental(s) ... meaning long queues for rent-controlled housing ... average waiting time was 9 years in 2020" [1] "...fuelled a thriving sub-letting or "second-hand" market, with "first-hand" renters and owners alike offering apartments to tenants for very high prices, despite regulations designed to stop people being ripped-off." [2] "70% of local authorities reported a housing shortage in 2020." [1] "...strict rent controls discourage developers from building and individuals from renting out vacant properties..." [1] "Generous mortgage tax breaks encourage households to buy property and the combination has forced up house prices and household borrowing to levels that threaten the economy" [1] "Home prices have risen around 18% over the last year alone" [1] "Regulations ... are also fuelling market instability" [2] "'I have a lot of friends who are struggling - moving many times per year,' says Maria Grigorenko, a 29-year-old brand manager in Stockholm" [2] [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/sweden-housing/factbox-dysfunctional-swedish-housing-market-behind-ouster-of-pm-lofven-idUSL5N2O51RM https://www.reuters.com/article/sweden-housing/factbox-dysfu... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58317555 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58317555
    - mmarq 5y ago
      You’ve just posted a link that proves my point: Despite its complex challenges, Sweden is in a better position on housing than many other EU countries. Only around 8% of Swedes live in households spending more than 40% of disposable income on housing, compared to 15% in the UK and almost 40% in Greece, according Eurostat data. Swedes are also less likely to live with their parents than any other young Europeans. But until recently, getting a well-maintained, rent-controlled apartment straight after school is something some Swedes have just taken "for granted", argues Liza, a 37-year-old tech worker, who didn't want to share her last name. She moved to London from Stockholm last year, and believes Swedes complaining about housing shortages would do well to put their struggles in a wider context. "In the UK, apartments are often super old and not of good standard, even though the rent would be much more than in Sweden."
crisdux 5y ago
Government had a heavy hand in causing the issue and your solution is more government to fix the problem? We need reform. In general, food in the US is not heavily regulated and that's why we have some of the cheapest and most varied foods in the world.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  Food production is extremely subsidized and that is why it is cheap.
  - crisdux 5y ago
    No food is cheap because of our vast productive land and technology. I'm not denying that subsidizes don't exist. You can't just make general statements. If you added up the entire market for all retail and food services-- we are talking trillions of dollars a year in sales. The subsidizes are small. Think restaurants, grocery stores, food processing, etc that are all in this category.
  - rowanajmarshall 5y ago
    Food is also cheap the New Zealand, who doesn't subsidise at all. The US has fantastic soils, good weather, buckets of cheap capital, and an awesome transportation network (both natural and artificial); that's why food is cheap.
tootahe45 5y ago
It's heavily regulated and subsidized in NZ and it's also lot more un-affordable here. Since a few years ago we've been allowed to withdraw our version of a 401k to buy houses, to give you an idea of how much the govt has been trying to prop things up.
- zeckalpha 5y ago
  You can do that in the US, too https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/081815/can-i-take-my-401k-buy-house.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/081815/can-i-take-m...
StevePerkins 5y ago
Bring back mid-century urban planning? While we're ignoring history of utopian policies, perhaps we should give eugenics a second chance?
- alisonkisk 5y ago
nikanj 5y ago
If I own land and decide to grow food, I need way less permits than if I decide to grow housing

xibalba 5y ago

Over regulation is a big part of how this mess was created in the first place. Go read about Stockholm’s housing U̶t̶o̶p̶i̶a̶ hellscape to see the future you’d create.

goodpoint 5y ago
"Over regulation" is an absurd concept: laws are not simply "not enough" or "too much". What really matters is *what* is allowed and prohibited and who benefits from it. In many countries regulatory capture led to building and zoning laws that serve to the interest of large investors groups as well as small speculators. People who have a home as necessity rather than an investment are put at a disadvantage.
- pmorici 5y ago
  Wether you like it or not owning a home is always an investment. Perhaps not a good one but an investment non the less. To act like there are two types of people and that one disadvantaging the other because of their preference is silly.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    No. You are confusing the primary purpose being an investment and being a dwelling. The intentions and behavior of the buyer can be profoundly different. Unsurprisingly, most countries have different regulations for first home buyer VS local investors VS foreign investors. If anything it's silly not wanting to acknowledge the difference. Or perhaps a bit cheeky.
    - pmorici 5y ago
      Unless the owner is letting the property sit empty it isn’t going to have an effect on the supply/ demand balance of housing. Where you live is always going to have financial consequences that can’t be ignored.
      - goodpoint 5y ago
        > Unless the owner is letting the property sit empty ...which happens all the time, especially with large speculative investors. > it isn’t going to have an effect Besides, it's also plain wrong, obviously. Owners have an effect on the occupancy rate. The same house can be occupied by 2, 3 or 4 for example.
mmarq 5y ago
The only housing hellscape I had to deal with in my entire life has been renting in London. Thank God I finally managed to buy a flat, but I’ve been at risk of homelessness with a solid 6-digit salary, because landlords can evict you with 1 month notice for no reason (so guess what happens if the fridge breaks and they don’t want to replace it). Renters are vetted more than somebody who requested a mortgage, are not expected to have any privacy and may not pass the reference check if they had a severe disease (say cancer). The state of disrepair is appalling, professionals live in places where Sweden, as you mentioned Stockholm, wouldn’t house criminals or recovering addicts (as in somebody who can’t pay rent). Going from this hellscape to whatever is going on in Stockholm would definitely be an improvement.
- xibalba 5y ago
  > Going from this hellscape to whatever is going on in Stockholm would definitely be an improvement Are you sure?: "Sweden has not built enough rental(s) ... meaning long queues for rent-controlled housing ... average waiting time was 9 years in 2020" [1] "...fuelled a thriving sub-letting or "second-hand" market, with "first-hand" renters and owners alike offering apartments to tenants for very high prices, despite regulations designed to stop people being ripped-off." [2] "70% of local authorities reported a housing shortage in 2020." [1] "...strict rent controls discourage developers from building and individuals from renting out vacant properties..." [1] "Generous mortgage tax breaks encourage households to buy property and the combination has forced up house prices and household borrowing to levels that threaten the economy" [1] "Home prices have risen around 18% over the last year alone" [1] "Regulations ... are also fuelling market instability" [2] "'I have a lot of friends who are struggling - moving many times per year,' says Maria Grigorenko, a 29-year-old brand manager in Stockholm" [2] [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/sweden-housing/factbox-dysfunctional-swedish-housing-market-behind-ouster-of-pm-lofven-idUSL5N2O51RM https://www.reuters.com/article/sweden-housing/factbox-dysfu... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58317555 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58317555
  - mmarq 5y ago
    You’ve just posted a link that proves my point: Despite its complex challenges, Sweden is in a better position on housing than many other EU countries. Only around 8% of Swedes live in households spending more than 40% of disposable income on housing, compared to 15% in the UK and almost 40% in Greece, according Eurostat data. Swedes are also less likely to live with their parents than any other young Europeans. But until recently, getting a well-maintained, rent-controlled apartment straight after school is something some Swedes have just taken "for granted", argues Liza, a 37-year-old tech worker, who didn't want to share her last name. She moved to London from Stockholm last year, and believes Swedes complaining about housing shortages would do well to put their struggles in a wider context. "In the UK, apartments are often super old and not of good standard, even though the rent would be much more than in Sweden."

crisdux 5y ago

Government had a heavy hand in causing the issue and your solution is more government to fix the problem? We need reform. In general, food in the US is not heavily regulated and that's why we have some of the cheapest and most varied foods in the world.

alisonkisk 5y ago
Food production is extremely subsidized and that is why it is cheap.
- crisdux 5y ago
  No food is cheap because of our vast productive land and technology. I'm not denying that subsidizes don't exist. You can't just make general statements. If you added up the entire market for all retail and food services-- we are talking trillions of dollars a year in sales. The subsidizes are small. Think restaurants, grocery stores, food processing, etc that are all in this category.
- rowanajmarshall 5y ago
  Food is also cheap the New Zealand, who doesn't subsidise at all. The US has fantastic soils, good weather, buckets of cheap capital, and an awesome transportation network (both natural and artificial); that's why food is cheap.

tootahe45 5y ago

It's heavily regulated and subsidized in NZ and it's also lot more un-affordable here. Since a few years ago we've been allowed to withdraw our version of a 401k to buy houses, to give you an idea of how much the govt has been trying to prop things up.

zeckalpha 5y ago
You can do that in the US, too https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/081815/can-i-take-my-401k-buy-house.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/081815/can-i-take-m...

StevePerkins 5y ago

Bring back mid-century urban planning? While we're ignoring history of utopian policies, perhaps we should give eugenics a second chance?

alisonkisk 5y ago

nikanj 5y ago

If I own land and decide to grow food, I need way less permits than if I decide to grow housing