3 ms·

> Where do you find employees, even $500K/year ones, you would trust not to pick up $300m just sitting there in the open for the taking? As with any crime, you

> Where do you find employees, even $500K/year ones, you would trust not to pick up $300m just sitting there in the open for the taking? As with any crime, you rely on the risk (and potential punishment) being higher than the reward. In this case, because it's based on blockchains that are public, immutable and very easy to trace, it'll be hard to impossible for the one doing the drain to actually get away with it. They can try to go to a exchange to get actual money out of it, but the exchange will most likely have blacklisted the addresses involved. They can try to tumble it, but the exchanges will mostly likely blacklist your account if they see any tumbling involved as they can't fulfill the KYC/AML laws then. They can try to sit on it for the future, but eventually they are gonna want to cash out somehow, and then the two previous issues get in the way again.

gzer0 5y ago
How are "Coinjoined" transactions [1] able to be definitively traced to any one individual? Every coin-mixing event can be interpreted 1,496 different ways. With each cycle increasing interpretations exponentially. "Every Whirlpool is structurally sound with 100% maximum entropy; Never cycling with yourself; Never cycling previously seen coins together; Never any deterministic links between inputs and outputs; And never any address reuse." The authors of this coinjoin protocol use Boltzmann analysis to determine 1,496 possible linkages. [1] https://kycp.org/#/323df21f0b0756f98336437aa3d2fb87e02b59f1946b714a7b09df04d429dec2/in https://kycp.org/#/323df21f0b0756f98336437aa3d2fb87e02b59f19... [2] https://samouraiwallet.com/whirlpool https://samouraiwallet.com/whirlpool If everyone starts doing this, will all coins eventually become tainted? I don't see a way out of this problem.
- capableweb 5y ago
  > If everyone starts doing this, will all coins eventually become tainted? I don't see a way out of this problem. Indeed, if everyone started doing this (or everyone started using Zcash with z-addrs), then you might be able to get away with it. But that's not where we're at today. Try signing up to Coinbase and funnel $320M worth of ETH via that account. They will 100% lock your account and ask for proof of where it comes from. If it comes from after doing a bunch of tumbling, they will go harder against you to prove where it comes from. Any big exchange will do the same diligence as otherwise they themselves will get into trouble with the law.
  - gzer0 5y ago
    Since 1 wallet != 1 unique individual; it could be done. The points you bring up are fair, yes. But I'd also imagine if you were able to pull off a $350 million heist, you'd have some sense about obfuscating your withdrawls. Not to mention, converting your initial crypto tokens into another currency, and then another currency, and eventually making it to Fiat. For example, converting to Monero and back to BTC would be near impossible to trace. On top of this, there is Paxful which you can utilize for cash payments. There are many, many ways if you are determined. I don't think anyone would be silly enough to attempt a $350 million withdrawal from Coinbase.
    - 323 5y ago
      > For example, converting to Monero and back to BTC would be near impossible to trace. You still have the problem of justifying where you got the initial crypto if anyone audits you. "I just remembered about some crypto I mined in 2010" will not cut it.
      - vageli 5y ago
        With that much at stake, it seems easier to try a public spectacle like the guy who is digging up a landfill to find an old hard drive with a btc wallet. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hard-drive-lost-bitcoin-landfill https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hard-drive-lost-bitcoin-landfil...
      - paulpauper 5y ago
        create a phony company, hire yourself , and then pay yourself for consulting work. there are tons of ways of doing it
    - vageli 5y ago
      Where can you swap BTC for monero while avoiding KYC? Via wrapped versions of both coins on the eth blockcain or something?
      - gzer0 5y ago
PinguTS 5y ago
I thought it is all decentralized. I thought that it the whole point of Web3. Dou you want to tell me it is not. That there are central instances, which I can control? Wow.
- capableweb 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30191268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30191268 I made no arguments for/against decentralization, I didn't mention web3 nor that there is no central instances or that no one controls nothing in the cryptocurrency world. What are you even doing here on HN if you can't actually reply with a good faith argument? Please save that for Reddit or wherever that happens normally.
- unreal37 5y ago
  Transferring tokens to dollars is not decentralized. International (fiat) banking is tightly controlled.
  - PinguTS 5y ago
    What if I don't need fiat, because many things can be payed in some form of crypto like in Metaverse? What if round-trip those through many different cryptos? What if round-trip those through funny NFTs and with that even inflate NFTs? What if a combine many of those steps?
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  Modern crypto is all about being the new middle men while claiming to be decentralized.
- moron4hire 5y ago
  As a user, you don't get equal access to the Blockchain. You can't make any transactions unless someone wins the mining/staking lottery and then writes a block for you, an operation that is incredibly expensive to achieve. While the Blockchain itself is a distributed ledger, your access to it is not decentralized.
mrep 5y ago
Actually, I think it is easier than ever. You can move your stolen crypto to tornado.cash which pools your crypto together with everyone else's and then allows you to anonymously pull it out from the pool in .1/1/10... increments allowing you to effectively wash it. From there, you just need to launder it to legitimize it which you could do by creating some BS coin or NFTs with your real name attached to it which just so happens to get a bunch of "investors" (really just you investing the coins you stole).

gzer0 5y ago

How are "Coinjoined" transactions [1] able to be definitively traced to any one individual? Every coin-mixing event can be interpreted 1,496 different ways. With each cycle increasing interpretations exponentially. "Every Whirlpool is structurally sound with 100% maximum entropy; Never cycling with yourself; Never cycling previously seen coins together; Never any deterministic links between inputs and outputs; And never any address reuse." The authors of this coinjoin protocol use Boltzmann analysis to determine 1,496 possible linkages. [1] https://kycp.org/#/323df21f0b0756f98336437aa3d2fb87e02b59f1946b714a7b09df04d429dec2/in https://kycp.org/#/323df21f0b0756f98336437aa3d2fb87e02b59f19... [2] https://samouraiwallet.com/whirlpool https://samouraiwallet.com/whirlpool If everyone starts doing this, will all coins eventually become tainted? I don't see a way out of this problem.

capableweb 5y ago
> If everyone starts doing this, will all coins eventually become tainted? I don't see a way out of this problem. Indeed, if everyone started doing this (or everyone started using Zcash with z-addrs), then you might be able to get away with it. But that's not where we're at today. Try signing up to Coinbase and funnel $320M worth of ETH via that account. They will 100% lock your account and ask for proof of where it comes from. If it comes from after doing a bunch of tumbling, they will go harder against you to prove where it comes from. Any big exchange will do the same diligence as otherwise they themselves will get into trouble with the law.
- gzer0 5y ago
  Since 1 wallet != 1 unique individual; it could be done. The points you bring up are fair, yes. But I'd also imagine if you were able to pull off a $350 million heist, you'd have some sense about obfuscating your withdrawls. Not to mention, converting your initial crypto tokens into another currency, and then another currency, and eventually making it to Fiat. For example, converting to Monero and back to BTC would be near impossible to trace. On top of this, there is Paxful which you can utilize for cash payments. There are many, many ways if you are determined. I don't think anyone would be silly enough to attempt a $350 million withdrawal from Coinbase.
  - 323 5y ago
    > For example, converting to Monero and back to BTC would be near impossible to trace. You still have the problem of justifying where you got the initial crypto if anyone audits you. "I just remembered about some crypto I mined in 2010" will not cut it.
    - vageli 5y ago
      With that much at stake, it seems easier to try a public spectacle like the guy who is digging up a landfill to find an old hard drive with a btc wallet. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hard-drive-lost-bitcoin-landfill https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hard-drive-lost-bitcoin-landfil...
    - paulpauper 5y ago
      create a phony company, hire yourself , and then pay yourself for consulting work. there are tons of ways of doing it
  - vageli 5y ago
    Where can you swap BTC for monero while avoiding KYC? Via wrapped versions of both coins on the eth blockcain or something?
    - gzer0 5y ago

PinguTS 5y ago

I thought it is all decentralized. I thought that it the whole point of Web3. Dou you want to tell me it is not. That there are central instances, which I can control? Wow.

capableweb 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30191268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30191268 I made no arguments for/against decentralization, I didn't mention web3 nor that there is no central instances or that no one controls nothing in the cryptocurrency world. What are you even doing here on HN if you can't actually reply with a good faith argument? Please save that for Reddit or wherever that happens normally.
unreal37 5y ago
Transferring tokens to dollars is not decentralized. International (fiat) banking is tightly controlled.
- PinguTS 5y ago
  What if I don't need fiat, because many things can be payed in some form of crypto like in Metaverse? What if round-trip those through many different cryptos? What if round-trip those through funny NFTs and with that even inflate NFTs? What if a combine many of those steps?
JaimeThompson 5y ago
Modern crypto is all about being the new middle men while claiming to be decentralized.
moron4hire 5y ago
As a user, you don't get equal access to the Blockchain. You can't make any transactions unless someone wins the mining/staking lottery and then writes a block for you, an operation that is incredibly expensive to achieve. While the Blockchain itself is a distributed ledger, your access to it is not decentralized.

mrep 5y ago

Actually, I think it is easier than ever. You can move your stolen crypto to tornado.cash which pools your crypto together with everyone else's and then allows you to anonymously pull it out from the pool in .1/1/10... increments allowing you to effectively wash it. From there, you just need to launder it to legitimize it which you could do by creating some BS coin or NFTs with your real name attached to it which just so happens to get a bunch of "investors" (really just you investing the coins you stole).