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There are additional factors. Teslas are on average substantially newer than the average US passenger car fleet and thus have significantly more safety feature

There are additional factors. Teslas are on average substantially newer than the average US passenger car fleet and thus have significantly more safety features and driver assistance tech, are better maintained, etc. If Tesla compared only to vehicles of similar age and class (Audi/BMW/Mercedes etc) their stats would be much less favorable.

Robotbeat 5y ago
People often save up especially for a Tesla (incorporating gas and maintenance savings in the price), including a lot of people who wouldn't be buying a BMW, so I'm not sure price would be the right metric there.
- beberlei 5y ago
  Parent does not include price as a metric, but cars of the same age and class, which probably have many of the same default extra safety features. Older cars might not even have ESC, they certainly don't have cameras that help you detect cars in blind angles and so on.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    “Class” here refers to pricing, does it not? Luxury car owners will be quick to point out that the Model 3 and Y are not “luxury” class even if the cost ranges aren’t far apart.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Are you saying just because more people are being financially irresponsible when buying Teslas, we should cease such comparisons?
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    No, I’m saying that people incorporate a $10k price of gasoline into the price of the vehicle instead of paying for them separately as you would with a BMW.
kaba0 5y ago
Also, I think the biggest flaw in tesla’s statistics is that people will turn of autopilot when they see a dangerous situation ahead - it is pretty much as self-selecting “good” samples as it gets.
- dachryn 5y ago
  indeed, either they turn off autopilot to avoid the crash, or it crashed. The cases 'would have crashed if the human did not intervene' should also count if you want to claim it is super safe
  - emedkit 5y ago
    [flagged]
- robbiepapiere 5y ago
  That seems irrelevant for the statistics, though? It doesn‘t give the Tesla driver an advantage.
  - bildung 5y ago
    It does? Those drivers remove a small portion of the autopilot miles driven, but a large portion of the challenging/dangerous miles. The result are stats with a low accident per mile ratio.
  - contravariant 5y ago
    Sure, but the important question is the capability of the Autopilot, not the Tesla driver.
  - dtgriscom 5y ago
    It definitely skews the statistics. Compare two driver's records, but use all the driving of the first, and only the driving on safe/clear/clean/visible sections of highway for the second. Voila: the second will very probably be the "better" driver.
josefx 5y ago
> are better maintained, etc. Recent statistics released by TüV^1 show that among relatively new cars Tesla competes with Dacia for the highest failure rate among all cars that go through Germanies mandatory road worthiness tests. ^1 https://www.pcwelt.de/news/TUeV-warnt-vor-typischer-Schwachstelle-bei-E-Autos-11175778.html https://www.pcwelt.de/news/TUeV-warnt-vor-typischer-Schwachs...
- originalvichy 5y ago
  Go find the HN discussion on this report. German processes and bureaucracy surrounding road worthiness checks is not favourable towards non-established car brands like Tesla. In short: big car brands' cars go through a preliminary check at manufacturers' licensed dealerships, and only after that get sent to the government's checks. It enables manufacturers to fix cars before independent verification so their safety numbers look great. Tesla doesn't have this kind of extensive network for "pre-checks".
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    You're explaining (one of) the reasons Tesla is failing at the metric. Far from showing the metric is flawed, you're exposing the value of a dealer system and what Tesla's customers are losing because there isn't one.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      What value are you talking about? Not publishing open stats on test failures? Why is that something the customer would want to pay for?
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        The value is as an additional line of QC. If you think about it as "hiding statistics" then there is no value. If you think of it as the last step in the production process, then clearly the cars making it to the customers are of a higher average level if the bad ones get rejected. It also lets Tesla play with the numbers of shipped cars, because cars returned by dealers don't count as shipped. But look at the recent HN story about the Tesla without a brake pad.
nottorp 5y ago
I've driven someone's new Tesla. The rear right door didn't align with the body. New, fresh from the factory. Please don't compare it to high end german cars.

Robotbeat 5y ago

People often save up especially for a Tesla (incorporating gas and maintenance savings in the price), including a lot of people who wouldn't be buying a BMW, so I'm not sure price would be the right metric there.

beberlei 5y ago
Parent does not include price as a metric, but cars of the same age and class, which probably have many of the same default extra safety features. Older cars might not even have ESC, they certainly don't have cameras that help you detect cars in blind angles and so on.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  “Class” here refers to pricing, does it not? Luxury car owners will be quick to point out that the Model 3 and Y are not “luxury” class even if the cost ranges aren’t far apart.
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
Are you saying just because more people are being financially irresponsible when buying Teslas, we should cease such comparisons?
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  No, I’m saying that people incorporate a $10k price of gasoline into the price of the vehicle instead of paying for them separately as you would with a BMW.

kaba0 5y ago

Also, I think the biggest flaw in tesla’s statistics is that people will turn of autopilot when they see a dangerous situation ahead - it is pretty much as self-selecting “good” samples as it gets.

dachryn 5y ago
indeed, either they turn off autopilot to avoid the crash, or it crashed. The cases 'would have crashed if the human did not intervene' should also count if you want to claim it is super safe
- emedkit 5y ago
  [flagged]
robbiepapiere 5y ago
That seems irrelevant for the statistics, though? It doesn‘t give the Tesla driver an advantage.
- bildung 5y ago
  It does? Those drivers remove a small portion of the autopilot miles driven, but a large portion of the challenging/dangerous miles. The result are stats with a low accident per mile ratio.
- contravariant 5y ago
  Sure, but the important question is the capability of the Autopilot, not the Tesla driver.
- dtgriscom 5y ago
  It definitely skews the statistics. Compare two driver's records, but use all the driving of the first, and only the driving on safe/clear/clean/visible sections of highway for the second. Voila: the second will very probably be the "better" driver.

josefx 5y ago

> are better maintained, etc. Recent statistics released by TüV^1 show that among relatively new cars Tesla competes with Dacia for the highest failure rate among all cars that go through Germanies mandatory road worthiness tests. ^1 https://www.pcwelt.de/news/TUeV-warnt-vor-typischer-Schwachstelle-bei-E-Autos-11175778.html https://www.pcwelt.de/news/TUeV-warnt-vor-typischer-Schwachs...

originalvichy 5y ago
Go find the HN discussion on this report. German processes and bureaucracy surrounding road worthiness checks is not favourable towards non-established car brands like Tesla. In short: big car brands' cars go through a preliminary check at manufacturers' licensed dealerships, and only after that get sent to the government's checks. It enables manufacturers to fix cars before independent verification so their safety numbers look great. Tesla doesn't have this kind of extensive network for "pre-checks".
- HWR_14 5y ago
  You're explaining (one of) the reasons Tesla is failing at the metric. Far from showing the metric is flawed, you're exposing the value of a dealer system and what Tesla's customers are losing because there isn't one.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    What value are you talking about? Not publishing open stats on test failures? Why is that something the customer would want to pay for?
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      The value is as an additional line of QC. If you think about it as "hiding statistics" then there is no value. If you think of it as the last step in the production process, then clearly the cars making it to the customers are of a higher average level if the bad ones get rejected. It also lets Tesla play with the numbers of shipped cars, because cars returned by dealers don't count as shipped. But look at the recent HN story about the Tesla without a brake pad.

nottorp 5y ago

I've driven someone's new Tesla. The rear right door didn't align with the body. New, fresh from the factory. Please don't compare it to high end german cars.