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> Design is manipulating people into doing what you want I completely disagree. What I want is irrelevant. What matters is what I think the user wants. I prese

by bo1024 5y ago

> Design is manipulating people into doing what you want I completely disagree. What I want is irrelevant. What matters is what I think the user wants. I present them with information and choices, they tell me what to do. There is never a step where I hold any opinion over what the user should do. Only steps where I help them understand the consequences of their available actions.

creakingstairs 5y ago
> There is never a step where I hold any opinion over what the user should do. What do you mean "never"? If you've put one button on top of the other, you've just created a hierachy. You are telling the user that button is more important than the lower button. Have you ever hidden elements until it can be revealed by click on "more" button? That's you telling the user it isn't as important as unhidden elements. Have you made defaults? That's you nudging the user into what _you_ think is the sensible choice. In my opinion, design is fundamentally about having an opinion. A refined opinion that matches a lot of users is what is commonly deemed to be "good design", but obviously not a design never match all users. > What I want is irrelevant. What matters is what I think the user wants. What you think the user want is still what you want. But I think I get what you mean here, you don't like the anti-patterns and nudges that drive users to do what is "worse" for them. I agree with you there but I would argue that they are all still "design". Design is about manipulating people and whether you do it for good or bad is a moral choice.
- bo1024 5y ago
  > If you've put one button on top of the other, you've just created a hierachy. You are telling the user that button is more important than the lower button. > Have you ever hidden elements until it can be revealed by click on "more" button? That's you telling the user it isn't as important as unhidden elements. > Have you made defaults? That's you nudging the user into what _you_ think is the sensible choice. > In my opinion, design is fundamentally about having an opinion. A refined opinion that matches a lot of users is what is commonly deemed to be "good design", but obviously not a design never match all users. I think we're on the same page here or close to it. I can have lots of strong opinions about how best to inform the user about their options and what will happen if they choose them. I can have strong opinions about which options are best for accomplishing certain goals. But that's different from me trying to get the user to do something specific or wanting them to. Or even having an opinion about what they "should" do, that depends on their goals and circumstances. > Design is about manipulating people and whether you do it for good or bad is a moral choice. I still disagree about this. I would agree if you're creating art, an experience that is meant to be fictional. But if you're providing a tool or resource, then I think design is about informing people about their choices and empowering them to make them. So it should strive to be as far from opinionated or manipulative about those choices as possible.
  - creakingstairs 5y ago
    > I think design is about informing people about their choices and empowering them to make them. I think we are pretty much are on the same page here too. I agree that design _ought_ to be about informing people. It looks like our definition of 'design' and 'manipulation' vary slightly, which lead to our disagreement. - Your definition of design is a narrower than mine. (yours include the normative element whereas mine doesnt) - I've used the word 'manipulation' in a neutral way but it was a negative one for you. (e.g. The engineer manipulated the control panel vs she manipulated him into giving him all this money) In any case, I'll think more about your definition of design. If more designers used your definition, I think the world would be a better place!

by bo1024 5y ago

creakingstairs 5y ago

> There is never a step where I hold any opinion over what the user should do. What do you mean "never"? If you've put one button on top of the other, you've just created a hierachy. You are telling the user that button is more important than the lower button. Have you ever hidden elements until it can be revealed by click on "more" button? That's you telling the user it isn't as important as unhidden elements. Have you made defaults? That's you nudging the user into what _you_ think is the sensible choice. In my opinion, design is fundamentally about having an opinion. A refined opinion that matches a lot of users is what is commonly deemed to be "good design", but obviously not a design never match all users. > What I want is irrelevant. What matters is what I think the user wants. What you think the user want is still what you want. But I think I get what you mean here, you don't like the anti-patterns and nudges that drive users to do what is "worse" for them. I agree with you there but I would argue that they are all still "design". Design is about manipulating people and whether you do it for good or bad is a moral choice.

bo1024 5y ago
> If you've put one button on top of the other, you've just created a hierachy. You are telling the user that button is more important than the lower button. > Have you ever hidden elements until it can be revealed by click on "more" button? That's you telling the user it isn't as important as unhidden elements. > Have you made defaults? That's you nudging the user into what _you_ think is the sensible choice. > In my opinion, design is fundamentally about having an opinion. A refined opinion that matches a lot of users is what is commonly deemed to be "good design", but obviously not a design never match all users. I think we're on the same page here or close to it. I can have lots of strong opinions about how best to inform the user about their options and what will happen if they choose them. I can have strong opinions about which options are best for accomplishing certain goals. But that's different from me trying to get the user to do something specific or wanting them to. Or even having an opinion about what they "should" do, that depends on their goals and circumstances. > Design is about manipulating people and whether you do it for good or bad is a moral choice. I still disagree about this. I would agree if you're creating art, an experience that is meant to be fictional. But if you're providing a tool or resource, then I think design is about informing people about their choices and empowering them to make them. So it should strive to be as far from opinionated or manipulative about those choices as possible.
- creakingstairs 5y ago
  > I think design is about informing people about their choices and empowering them to make them. I think we are pretty much are on the same page here too. I agree that design _ought_ to be about informing people. It looks like our definition of 'design' and 'manipulation' vary slightly, which lead to our disagreement. - Your definition of design is a narrower than mine. (yours include the normative element whereas mine doesnt) - I've used the word 'manipulation' in a neutral way but it was a negative one for you. (e.g. The engineer manipulated the control panel vs she manipulated him into giving him all this money) In any case, I'll think more about your definition of design. If more designers used your definition, I think the world would be a better place!