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How is it possible to steal ETH? In ethereum code is law. If the code is valid, whatever gets executed is the truth. All bugs, processor errors, and everything

How is it possible to steal ETH? In ethereum code is law. If the code is valid, whatever gets executed is the truth. All bugs, processor errors, and everything else about the environment are part of that code and are thus part of law. There is no higher power for ethereum beyond the code. The people that transferred this wealth to their account are not thieves. They are not villains. They are smart people who saw a code path that resulted in a desirable outcome for themselves. Given both parties agreed that code is law, there is absolutely nothing unethical or immoral about what they did. They simply were more clever than the original holders of the ETH. They should be cheered on and rewarded for their smarts. Code is law. As long as the original people were not physically harmed or coerced out of their funds, they never got robbed. Their ETH was simply transferred to another party in accordance with the laws both parties agreed to. If what I say is wrong and code is not the law, than what is the point of ethereum at all? Might as well run on AWS or something.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> In ethereum code is law This is far from agreed upon.
- quantified 5y ago
  The law is buggy, and Wild West banks that issue their own currency are rampant without a sheriff to handle misconduct. I wonder how many $B it will take to put into stable shape. Took a long time to create solid central banks whose currency could be widely trusted.
rvz 5y ago
> In ethereum code is law The DAO hack says otherwise. Defeating the point of 'decentralization' and 'permissionless blockchains'. > If what I say is wrong and code is not the law, than what is the point of ethereum at all? Might as well run on AWS or something. Exactly. Even when 44% of Ethereum Nodes are running on AWS. Amazon's own announcement defeats the whole purpose of decentralization again and the idea of 'code is law'. [0] [0] https://coinful.net/amazon-managed-blockchain-supports-ethereum/ https://coinful.net/amazon-managed-blockchain-supports-ether...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
twomoonsbysurf 5y ago
lacker 5y ago
In ethereum code is law. That may be so, but in all real-world countries law is law, so it's reasonable to describe these actions as "stealing". The value of Ethereum is not that it suddenly becomes moral to steal money from people. Or at least, that statement will have to be true if we want the real-world legal authorities to happily coexist with Ethereum.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  Then why not include reversability that could be executed by real world judges?
  - errcorrectcode 5y ago
    Idempotence and infrastructure-level rollback seem essential, especially in complicated transactions that require multiple external side-effects.
jah242 5y ago
> Given both parties agreed that code is law, there is absolutely nothing unethical or immoral about what they did There is no rule that because something is legal makes it ethical and moral. It's amazing how common this sleight of hand is used to justify doing shitty things for personal gain.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  I think you missed the point that GP was trying to make but, don't worry, I'll gladly explain. Crypto enthusiasts (in particular those involved with ETH) continuously push this narrative that code is law, code is law. Other people, who are less naive, immediately pointed out how that kind of "contract" would not fly in the real world with real people, because, turns out that real people make mistakes all the time and it is nice to have a social structure behind it (like a true-ish framework of law) to save your ass when you actually mess up or things do not go as the parties involved in it wanted it to go. I can give you an embarrasingly simple example that I think anybody could understand. You go to your favorite bank to pay for something, you tell the clerk you want to put $400 in someone's account but you hand out $500 in bills. The clerk (or you) could notice this and state "hey you gave me $500, but you told me you only wanted to deposit $400, here's $100 back", and literally nothing else happens. In the crypto world you would've just lost $100. (See the news from yesterday or so, about a guy who accidentally lost half a million dollars like this). So then, crypto enthusiasts, instead of trying to address this issue, pretty much doubled down on their foolish stance that "code is law, code is law!" and everybody involved in it then knows (or SHOULD know) that they playing with fire regarding this. And people who play with fire shouldn't be surprised if/when they burn themselves and would look quite ridiculous if they start discussing about the ethical and moral implications of fire burning stuff when it does happen.
  - ayngg 5y ago
    Just from a cursory search, nobody has really talked about "code is law" on ethereum for many years now since the dao thing, the only people who are zealous about that are using ethereum classic. In my experience, its become a sort of meme that people parrot whenever something like this happens. Unless you are talking about cryptobros on twitter or something, but I don't think anyone considers what they say important.
electriclove 5y ago
https://old.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are...
vvillena 5y ago
You're late to this discussion by almost six years, when it became clear to the Ethereum team and the people running Ethereum nodes that code isn't law, but consensus is. Consensus is indeed the "higher power beyond the code". By the way, the same thing applies to Bitcoin, and to every other decentralized "crypto" project out there. Code is nothing but a way to implement a certain set of rules a majority agrees with. And the object of agreement can indeed change over time. This does not threaten the decentralized nature of the Ethereum network, or its capabilities as a core tool for all sorts of decentralized instruments that simply were not possible with anything that came before.
- camillomiller 5y ago
  Yeah, they’re so invested in this that 6 years later they still haven’t moved the platform to proof of stake…
- kelseyfrog 5y ago
  The Ethereum team must be well aware they are late by about 240 years. This reads like how government power is derived from the consent of the governed, but with some of the words switched out.
  - vvillena 5y ago
    You are right! Bitcoin and Ethereum (in its first PoW phase) work in the same way. The "wave of consensus" described in the Bitcoin white paper is the true innovation that enables this kind of decentralized government. But the core principle is the same as that present in all agreements made in human history. This is just a new way to agree to things, but let's not discount it much, it's still a true innovation that enables things not possible before.
    - kelseyfrog 5y ago
      I hope we are saved by the crypto folks aversion to existing institutions such that they never mingle their ideas with the our present legal system to mechanically enforce their social constructs. A base under the control of a crypto superstructure is a form of hell I wish to avoid.
mdoms 5y ago
Meanwhile in the real world there is a distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law and that distinction very much does matter.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> In ethereum code is law This is far from agreed upon.

quantified 5y ago
The law is buggy, and Wild West banks that issue their own currency are rampant without a sheriff to handle misconduct. I wonder how many $B it will take to put into stable shape. Took a long time to create solid central banks whose currency could be widely trusted.

rvz 5y ago

> In ethereum code is law The DAO hack says otherwise. Defeating the point of 'decentralization' and 'permissionless blockchains'. > If what I say is wrong and code is not the law, than what is the point of ethereum at all? Might as well run on AWS or something. Exactly. Even when 44% of Ethereum Nodes are running on AWS. Amazon's own announcement defeats the whole purpose of decentralization again and the idea of 'code is law'. [0] [0] https://coinful.net/amazon-managed-blockchain-supports-ethereum/ https://coinful.net/amazon-managed-blockchain-supports-ether...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

twomoonsbysurf 5y ago

lacker 5y ago

In ethereum code is law. That may be so, but in all real-world countries law is law, so it's reasonable to describe these actions as "stealing". The value of Ethereum is not that it suddenly becomes moral to steal money from people. Or at least, that statement will have to be true if we want the real-world legal authorities to happily coexist with Ethereum.

KptMarchewa 5y ago
Then why not include reversability that could be executed by real world judges?
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  Idempotence and infrastructure-level rollback seem essential, especially in complicated transactions that require multiple external side-effects.

jah242 5y ago

> Given both parties agreed that code is law, there is absolutely nothing unethical or immoral about what they did There is no rule that because something is legal makes it ethical and moral. It's amazing how common this sleight of hand is used to justify doing shitty things for personal gain.

moralestapia 5y ago
I think you missed the point that GP was trying to make but, don't worry, I'll gladly explain. Crypto enthusiasts (in particular those involved with ETH) continuously push this narrative that code is law, code is law. Other people, who are less naive, immediately pointed out how that kind of "contract" would not fly in the real world with real people, because, turns out that real people make mistakes all the time and it is nice to have a social structure behind it (like a true-ish framework of law) to save your ass when you actually mess up or things do not go as the parties involved in it wanted it to go. I can give you an embarrasingly simple example that I think anybody could understand. You go to your favorite bank to pay for something, you tell the clerk you want to put $400 in someone's account but you hand out $500 in bills. The clerk (or you) could notice this and state "hey you gave me $500, but you told me you only wanted to deposit $400, here's $100 back", and literally nothing else happens. In the crypto world you would've just lost $100. (See the news from yesterday or so, about a guy who accidentally lost half a million dollars like this). So then, crypto enthusiasts, instead of trying to address this issue, pretty much doubled down on their foolish stance that "code is law, code is law!" and everybody involved in it then knows (or SHOULD know) that they playing with fire regarding this. And people who play with fire shouldn't be surprised if/when they burn themselves and would look quite ridiculous if they start discussing about the ethical and moral implications of fire burning stuff when it does happen.
- ayngg 5y ago
  Just from a cursory search, nobody has really talked about "code is law" on ethereum for many years now since the dao thing, the only people who are zealous about that are using ethereum classic. In my experience, its become a sort of meme that people parrot whenever something like this happens. Unless you are talking about cryptobros on twitter or something, but I don't think anyone considers what they say important.

electriclove 5y ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are...

vvillena 5y ago

You're late to this discussion by almost six years, when it became clear to the Ethereum team and the people running Ethereum nodes that code isn't law, but consensus is. Consensus is indeed the "higher power beyond the code". By the way, the same thing applies to Bitcoin, and to every other decentralized "crypto" project out there. Code is nothing but a way to implement a certain set of rules a majority agrees with. And the object of agreement can indeed change over time. This does not threaten the decentralized nature of the Ethereum network, or its capabilities as a core tool for all sorts of decentralized instruments that simply were not possible with anything that came before.

camillomiller 5y ago
Yeah, they’re so invested in this that 6 years later they still haven’t moved the platform to proof of stake…
kelseyfrog 5y ago
The Ethereum team must be well aware they are late by about 240 years. This reads like how government power is derived from the consent of the governed, but with some of the words switched out.
- vvillena 5y ago
  You are right! Bitcoin and Ethereum (in its first PoW phase) work in the same way. The "wave of consensus" described in the Bitcoin white paper is the true innovation that enables this kind of decentralized government. But the core principle is the same as that present in all agreements made in human history. This is just a new way to agree to things, but let's not discount it much, it's still a true innovation that enables things not possible before.
  - kelseyfrog 5y ago
    I hope we are saved by the crypto folks aversion to existing institutions such that they never mingle their ideas with the our present legal system to mechanically enforce their social constructs. A base under the control of a crypto superstructure is a form of hell I wish to avoid.

mdoms 5y ago

Meanwhile in the real world there is a distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law and that distinction very much does matter.