4 ms·

Nobody forces you to change the defaults, if your IDE has a color scheme you don't like you can continue using it, change your own preferences then using a men

Nobody forces you to change the defaults, if your IDE has a color scheme you don't like you can continue using it, change your own preferences then using a menu and a popup to select a different color scheme. The thing is some users want to change things and some developers are even capable to implement things without hard coding various constants. Most issues appears when designers (like GNOME ones) want to impose a brand or vision. Good apps will store configuration in a folder/file and they offer import/export functionality. As a person with eye sight problems I would be unable to do my job if a shit designer could force is shitty font sizes and colors on my apps(for some reason slim fonts with light gray on white background is sexy in recent years) TL:DR nobody forces you to open the settings panel, keep the defaults and don't try to demand or defend removing stuff you personally don't need, you don't understand how other work(use the applications)

larsrc 5y ago
All too often, especially in the open source world, settings are used as a way to not figure out how to make a good default. When the default is crap, I am forced to go to the settings and spend way too much time finding my way around a gazillion possibilities.
- simion314 5y ago
  >All too often, especially in the open source world, settings are used as a way to not figure out how to make a good default. When the default is crap, I am forced to go to the settings and spend way too much time finding my way around a gazillion possibilities. IS there any evidence for this? Like what should be the default font or font size? Is there evidence that there is such a good default? The problem is you want that the good defaults match your preferences without proof that those defaults are good, Sure there are exceptions where evil or big ego people will force their preference over what the users want. Do you play video games? , if yes don't you think that sometimes you need to adjust the sound volume, font sizes, difficulty to match you? Do you listen to radio ? Isn't great you can adjust the volume or change the station? Do you use and IDE ? isn't great that you can change the color scheme, the code formatting scheme, the keyboard shortcuts, that you can install plugins to add more features to help you with your work? True story, I installed for my son an emulator and installed a game he wanted to play, after a few hours I ask about the game and he tells me that the controller buttons were weird/reversed but he got used to that. I then went in the menus and found the setting where he could have change those buttons so he do not have to suffer and rewire his muscle memory, the conclusion is we need to teach people to not be afraid to think "this software should work differently, let me check for a setting instead of torturing myself". P.S was not the emulator program fault, it could not have a default that worked for all game and controller combinations.
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    I'm not advocating for _no_ settings. I'm saying a limited selection of settings are useful, putting just about everything behind a setting like many FOSS programs do is bad. Accessibility is the biggest one where people have certain strict needs which go against the usual. Font size is an example of this accessibility requirement. I don't like settings for UI, there usually is one correct or best UI. I don't want to see settings to configure the drop shadow amount. I use an iPhone because its generally just exactly what I want. And in the few cases it isn't there is a setting for it or its not actually important and I deal with it. Moving from android I was upset there wasn't a setting to have the keyboard use the vibration motor rather than a click sound but after a week I didn't care at all and I'm glad there aren't 2 billion settings to make iOS work like Android. I leave my IDE theme on the default, my wallpaper on the default, ringtone on the default. None of it actually matters for getting work done and living life.
    - simion314 5y ago
      >I leave my IDE theme on the default, For sure you installed some plugin, enabled/disabled some feature in your IDE. My terminal apps has tabs and profiles, I have my important server SSH open in a tab with a red color scheme to remind me this is not my local and I should pay attention. Sure more then 50$ of the users don't need this but why should the terminal developers not put this important feature for power users in ? I mean regular users should not open the advanced settings, or if by mistake a GNOME users will open it , will have a short segfault/reboot and then proceed to uninstall the app and installed some crippled software or buy an iPad. Do we really need to hide power user settings under some "Cheat code" so this type of users don't see by accident the options screen? do we need to protect their limited ....?
Gigachad 5y ago
>Most issues appears when designers (like GNOME ones) want to impose a brand or vision. Gnome is by far my favorite DE on linux because its the only one I feel that actually cares about the best out of box experience. I can install any linux distro and pick gnome and it all just works. And it just works really well. While everything else seems to take a significant amount of tweaking to create a nice experience. So I think Gnome is the perfect example of why stripping back configuration works. I like the choice available to pick my DE and OS, but after that I want it to just work. Another issue I have noticed is the more settings a piece of software has, the less stable and consistent it is. You get issues which only occur when particular settings are set because the devs just haven't used that setting in so long they didn't see the issue. I had some where just setting up volume change keys required configuring keyboard shortcuts to fire bash commands to adjust volume.. I prefer to use software where the designers and developers are bold and put forward their vision on what the right way is. If they are right, I use the software, if they are wrong, I find an alternative that is right. I think LibreOffice is the biggest example of devs held hostage by the community unable to do anything. They have like 4 different UIs available which you can pick from in the settings. Their modern redesign isn't even the default setting. So I prefer something like Google Docs where they have one UI and feel empowered to change it to fit the best possible design.
- simion314 5y ago
  >I prefer to use software where the designers and developers are bold and put forward their vision on what the right way is This is stupid, why do games let you configure the controls? Is it because the developers are not bold to impose the right way and force the people into it? Are the people changing the controls "using it wrong"? I assume you mean themes, there is no right way there, there are people that need larger contrast, larger fonts, different colors so give them the option. So if you are forced by accessibility reasons to offer diffent sizes and colors(even iPhones offer this) then IMO you are a bad developer/designer to hardcode your theme and your are an ashole if you do extra work to prevent teeming by the community. If you mean missing functionality as a feature , most of the time is because other reasons, like GNOME missing file picker thumbnails and their fake defense of it like "you are using it wrong, just DND the files because this is the right way"
thawaya3113 5y ago
Gnome isn’t trying to impose a vision. In the bazaar that is the Linux ecosystem, they are bringing another idea to the table. The idea that developers (and therefore users) would benefit from having a reliable and consistent default theme and interface. Gnome is absolutely not opposed to customization and have already confirmed they will add theme colors, etc. Beyond that they are taking a wait and see approach to see additional customizations they can add based on the actual usage out there. What Gnome is trying to do is give developers who are not as interested in supporting a variety of UI configurations, a base setting that they can target. Those developers who do want to provide a more extensive theming system, are absolutely able to do so. In fact, many of the new GTK4 default Gnome 42 apps themselves include additional theming beyond what Gnome 42 and libadwaita support by default.
- simion314 5y ago
  >Gnome isn’t trying to impose a vision. Didn't GNOME removed the System Tray ? If they offered a choice they could force their GNOME apps not to use the System Tray but support third party apps like say Slack,Skype ,Thunderbird. They decided System Tray is not cool anymore, same for Server Side decorations, they are against supporting legacy GTK applications or cross platform ones - they are not presenting their vision they are forcing it. But I know fans will excuse with "GNOME team is too busy with removing features to support the System Tray API or keep an SSD compatibility mode but there are some hacky extension or patches on gitHub that worked but probably will stop when you update and let you stuck on a TTY screen"

larsrc 5y ago

All too often, especially in the open source world, settings are used as a way to not figure out how to make a good default. When the default is crap, I am forced to go to the settings and spend way too much time finding my way around a gazillion possibilities.

simion314 5y ago
>All too often, especially in the open source world, settings are used as a way to not figure out how to make a good default. When the default is crap, I am forced to go to the settings and spend way too much time finding my way around a gazillion possibilities. IS there any evidence for this? Like what should be the default font or font size? Is there evidence that there is such a good default? The problem is you want that the good defaults match your preferences without proof that those defaults are good, Sure there are exceptions where evil or big ego people will force their preference over what the users want. Do you play video games? , if yes don't you think that sometimes you need to adjust the sound volume, font sizes, difficulty to match you? Do you listen to radio ? Isn't great you can adjust the volume or change the station? Do you use and IDE ? isn't great that you can change the color scheme, the code formatting scheme, the keyboard shortcuts, that you can install plugins to add more features to help you with your work? True story, I installed for my son an emulator and installed a game he wanted to play, after a few hours I ask about the game and he tells me that the controller buttons were weird/reversed but he got used to that. I then went in the menus and found the setting where he could have change those buttons so he do not have to suffer and rewire his muscle memory, the conclusion is we need to teach people to not be afraid to think "this software should work differently, let me check for a setting instead of torturing myself". P.S was not the emulator program fault, it could not have a default that worked for all game and controller combinations.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  I'm not advocating for _no_ settings. I'm saying a limited selection of settings are useful, putting just about everything behind a setting like many FOSS programs do is bad. Accessibility is the biggest one where people have certain strict needs which go against the usual. Font size is an example of this accessibility requirement. I don't like settings for UI, there usually is one correct or best UI. I don't want to see settings to configure the drop shadow amount. I use an iPhone because its generally just exactly what I want. And in the few cases it isn't there is a setting for it or its not actually important and I deal with it. Moving from android I was upset there wasn't a setting to have the keyboard use the vibration motor rather than a click sound but after a week I didn't care at all and I'm glad there aren't 2 billion settings to make iOS work like Android. I leave my IDE theme on the default, my wallpaper on the default, ringtone on the default. None of it actually matters for getting work done and living life.
  - simion314 5y ago
    >I leave my IDE theme on the default, For sure you installed some plugin, enabled/disabled some feature in your IDE. My terminal apps has tabs and profiles, I have my important server SSH open in a tab with a red color scheme to remind me this is not my local and I should pay attention. Sure more then 50$ of the users don't need this but why should the terminal developers not put this important feature for power users in ? I mean regular users should not open the advanced settings, or if by mistake a GNOME users will open it , will have a short segfault/reboot and then proceed to uninstall the app and installed some crippled software or buy an iPad. Do we really need to hide power user settings under some "Cheat code" so this type of users don't see by accident the options screen? do we need to protect their limited ....?

Gigachad 5y ago

>Most issues appears when designers (like GNOME ones) want to impose a brand or vision. Gnome is by far my favorite DE on linux because its the only one I feel that actually cares about the best out of box experience. I can install any linux distro and pick gnome and it all just works. And it just works really well. While everything else seems to take a significant amount of tweaking to create a nice experience. So I think Gnome is the perfect example of why stripping back configuration works. I like the choice available to pick my DE and OS, but after that I want it to just work. Another issue I have noticed is the more settings a piece of software has, the less stable and consistent it is. You get issues which only occur when particular settings are set because the devs just haven't used that setting in so long they didn't see the issue. I had some where just setting up volume change keys required configuring keyboard shortcuts to fire bash commands to adjust volume.. I prefer to use software where the designers and developers are bold and put forward their vision on what the right way is. If they are right, I use the software, if they are wrong, I find an alternative that is right. I think LibreOffice is the biggest example of devs held hostage by the community unable to do anything. They have like 4 different UIs available which you can pick from in the settings. Their modern redesign isn't even the default setting. So I prefer something like Google Docs where they have one UI and feel empowered to change it to fit the best possible design.

simion314 5y ago
>I prefer to use software where the designers and developers are bold and put forward their vision on what the right way is This is stupid, why do games let you configure the controls? Is it because the developers are not bold to impose the right way and force the people into it? Are the people changing the controls "using it wrong"? I assume you mean themes, there is no right way there, there are people that need larger contrast, larger fonts, different colors so give them the option. So if you are forced by accessibility reasons to offer diffent sizes and colors(even iPhones offer this) then IMO you are a bad developer/designer to hardcode your theme and your are an ashole if you do extra work to prevent teeming by the community. If you mean missing functionality as a feature , most of the time is because other reasons, like GNOME missing file picker thumbnails and their fake defense of it like "you are using it wrong, just DND the files because this is the right way"

thawaya3113 5y ago

Gnome isn’t trying to impose a vision. In the bazaar that is the Linux ecosystem, they are bringing another idea to the table. The idea that developers (and therefore users) would benefit from having a reliable and consistent default theme and interface. Gnome is absolutely not opposed to customization and have already confirmed they will add theme colors, etc. Beyond that they are taking a wait and see approach to see additional customizations they can add based on the actual usage out there. What Gnome is trying to do is give developers who are not as interested in supporting a variety of UI configurations, a base setting that they can target. Those developers who do want to provide a more extensive theming system, are absolutely able to do so. In fact, many of the new GTK4 default Gnome 42 apps themselves include additional theming beyond what Gnome 42 and libadwaita support by default.

simion314 5y ago
>Gnome isn’t trying to impose a vision. Didn't GNOME removed the System Tray ? If they offered a choice they could force their GNOME apps not to use the System Tray but support third party apps like say Slack,Skype ,Thunderbird. They decided System Tray is not cool anymore, same for Server Side decorations, they are against supporting legacy GTK applications or cross platform ones - they are not presenting their vision they are forcing it. But I know fans will excuse with "GNOME team is too busy with removing features to support the System Tray API or keep an SSD compatibility mode but there are some hacky extension or patches on gitHub that worked but probably will stop when you update and let you stuck on a TTY screen"