5 ms·

Bonus points for using the same tooling and languages from then too. 6502 assembly, then a bit of 16 bit x86 assembly, and finally some C with Borland's 1992 to

Bonus points for using the same tooling and languages from then too. 6502 assembly, then a bit of 16 bit x86 assembly, and finally some C with Borland's 1992 tooling.

hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
Yeah definitely! Is there any modern tools that can 1) run on native platform and 2) significantly improve dev experience? I guess the guys who developed Nox Archaist used some modern tools, and on DOS we might have something new because of a large retro community. The more I think about it, the more I believe if someone can pull this off, although many skills learnt are useless in modern programming (like 6502 asm or 80286 asm or whatever tricks to get the games run smoothly on retro platforms), but the amount of effort definitely would pay off. I don't think one needs to walk the full Carmack road. I think whoever goes from Shadowforge to Quake is impressive enough. Plus one does not need to implement all these games, many of them share similar engines. (Bad formatting...) June 22, 1996 Quake id Software GT Interactive Programming May 31, 1996 Final Doom id Software GT Interactive Programming October 30, 1995 Hexen: Beyond Heretic Raven Software id Software 3D engine December 23, 1994 Heretic Raven Software id Software Engine programmer September 30, 1994 Doom II: Hell on Earth id Software GT Interactive Programming December 10, 1993 Doom id Software id Software Programming 1993 Shadowcaster Raven Software Origin Systems 3D engine September 18, 1992 Spear of Destiny id Software FormGen Software engineer May 5, 1992 Wolfenstein 3D id Software Apogee Software Programming 1991 Catacomb 3-D id Software Softdisk Programming 1991 Commander Keen in Aliens Ate My Babysitter! id Software FormGen Programming December 15, 1991 Commander Keen in Goodbye, Galaxy! id Software Apogee Software Programming 1991 Commander Keen in Keen Dreams id Software Softdisk Programming 1991 Shadow Knights id Software Softdisk Design/programming 1991 Rescue Rover 2 id Software Softdisk Programmer 1991 Rescue Rover id Software Softdisk Programmer 1991 Hovertank 3D id Software Softdisk Programming 1991 Dangerous Dave in the Haunted Mansion id Software Softdisk Programming 1991 Dark Designs III: Retribution Softdisk Softdisk Programmer/designer December 14, 1990 Commander Keen in Invasion of the Vorticons id Software Apogee Software Programming 1990 Slordax: The Unknown Enemy Softdisk Softdisk Programming 1990 Catacomb II Softdisk Softdisk Developer 1990 Catacomb Softdisk Softdisk Programmer 1990 Dark Designs II: Closing the Gate Softdisk Softdisk Programmer/designer 1990 Dark Designs: Grelminar's Staff John Carmack Softdisk Developer 1990 Tennis John Carmack Softdisk Developer 1990 Wraith: The Devil's Demise John Carmack Nite Owl Productions Developer 1989 Shadowforge John Carmack Nite Owl Productions Developer
- syngrog66 5y ago
  thanks for reminding us: Carmack was a MACHINE in those years. and churning out one impressive/hit game after another
  - abrookewood 5y ago
    Yes, he's definitely one of those programmers that just blows my mind with how inventive and productive that they are.
  - hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
    Yeah man, definitely. But from what I know, once you grind out a good enough game engine, essentially you can reuse the same code base again and again. The same with tools. For example Romero's Tiled served all Softdisk games plus Wolfenstein. The only new code is some new functionalities and a lot of new game logic code. Nowadays, you need 6 months just for the concept... I bet nowadays if a two-programmer team (one for engine and one for tool, both do some designs) with some C++ and game dev experience goes into jam mode, with proper asset support (say he/she downloaded/contracted the assets beforehand), he can pop out games similar to the Softdisk ones in even shorter timespan. After all nowadays computers are much faster and we don't need assembly any more. The tricky part is to stay on jam mode, and I believe the Softdisk team did wonder back then. Everyone was highly motivated and worked probably 80+ hours per week. They believed they could change the world and they did.
hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
Second thought, if one wants to develop DOOM as Carmack did, he would need a NeXT workstation, might not be easy to come by TBH, but maybe there is am emulator good enough.
- spullara 5y ago
  Basically, a Mac :)
  - markus_zhang 5y ago
    You have a point!
syngrog66 5y ago
and hard-to-press keys. uppercase letters only. and you are ONLY allowed to backup manually, and to 1.4Mb (or worse) floppies This is The Way kids: off my lawn

Bonus points for using the same tooling and languages from then too. 6502 assembly, then a bit of 16 bit x86 assembly, and finally some C with Borland's 1992 tooling.

hnthrowaway0315 5y ago

Yeah definitely! Is there any modern tools that can 1) run on native platform and 2) significantly improve dev experience? I guess the guys who developed Nox Archaist used some modern tools, and on DOS we might have something new because of a large retro community. The more I think about it, the more I believe if someone can pull this off, although many skills learnt are useless in modern programming (like 6502 asm or 80286 asm or whatever tricks to get the games run smoothly on retro platforms), but the amount of effort definitely would pay off. I don't think one needs to walk the full Carmack road. I think whoever goes from Shadowforge to Quake is impressive enough. Plus one does not need to implement all these games, many of them share similar engines. (Bad formatting...) June 22, 1996 Quake id Software GT Interactive Programming May 31, 1996 Final Doom id Software GT Interactive Programming October 30, 1995 Hexen: Beyond Heretic Raven Software id Software 3D engine December 23, 1994 Heretic Raven Software id Software Engine programmer September 30, 1994 Doom II: Hell on Earth id Software GT Interactive Programming December 10, 1993 Doom id Software id Software Programming 1993 Shadowcaster Raven Software Origin Systems 3D engine September 18, 1992 Spear of Destiny id Software FormGen Software engineer May 5, 1992 Wolfenstein 3D id Software Apogee Software Programming 1991 Catacomb 3-D id Software Softdisk Programming 1991 Commander Keen in Aliens Ate My Babysitter! id Software FormGen Programming December 15, 1991 Commander Keen in Goodbye, Galaxy! id Software Apogee Software Programming 1991 Commander Keen in Keen Dreams id Software Softdisk Programming 1991 Shadow Knights id Software Softdisk Design/programming 1991 Rescue Rover 2 id Software Softdisk Programmer 1991 Rescue Rover id Software Softdisk Programmer 1991 Hovertank 3D id Software Softdisk Programming 1991 Dangerous Dave in the Haunted Mansion id Software Softdisk Programming 1991 Dark Designs III: Retribution Softdisk Softdisk Programmer/designer December 14, 1990 Commander Keen in Invasion of the Vorticons id Software Apogee Software Programming 1990 Slordax: The Unknown Enemy Softdisk Softdisk Programming 1990 Catacomb II Softdisk Softdisk Developer 1990 Catacomb Softdisk Softdisk Programmer 1990 Dark Designs II: Closing the Gate Softdisk Softdisk Programmer/designer 1990 Dark Designs: Grelminar's Staff John Carmack Softdisk Developer 1990 Tennis John Carmack Softdisk Developer 1990 Wraith: The Devil's Demise John Carmack Nite Owl Productions Developer 1989 Shadowforge John Carmack Nite Owl Productions Developer

syngrog66 5y ago
thanks for reminding us: Carmack was a MACHINE in those years. and churning out one impressive/hit game after another
- abrookewood 5y ago
  Yes, he's definitely one of those programmers that just blows my mind with how inventive and productive that they are.
- hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
  Yeah man, definitely. But from what I know, once you grind out a good enough game engine, essentially you can reuse the same code base again and again. The same with tools. For example Romero's Tiled served all Softdisk games plus Wolfenstein. The only new code is some new functionalities and a lot of new game logic code. Nowadays, you need 6 months just for the concept... I bet nowadays if a two-programmer team (one for engine and one for tool, both do some designs) with some C++ and game dev experience goes into jam mode, with proper asset support (say he/she downloaded/contracted the assets beforehand), he can pop out games similar to the Softdisk ones in even shorter timespan. After all nowadays computers are much faster and we don't need assembly any more. The tricky part is to stay on jam mode, and I believe the Softdisk team did wonder back then. Everyone was highly motivated and worked probably 80+ hours per week. They believed they could change the world and they did.

hnthrowaway0315 5y ago

Second thought, if one wants to develop DOOM as Carmack did, he would need a NeXT workstation, might not be easy to come by TBH, but maybe there is am emulator good enough.

spullara 5y ago
Basically, a Mac :)
- markus_zhang 5y ago
  You have a point!

syngrog66 5y ago

and hard-to-press keys. uppercase letters only. and you are ONLY allowed to backup manually, and to 1.4Mb (or worse) floppies This is The Way kids: off my lawn