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I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro

I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. I'm a progressive. I have family in Israel. I would be very upset if Israel were to cease to exist. And yet I don't agree with all Zionist principles, eg I believe that a combination of a diaspora and a homeland makes our race more resilient to future pogroms defensively and more familiar and thus less easily Othered by other cultures, an idea more aligned with other schools of Jewish thought.

weatherlite 5y ago
> I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. You're really can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist though, Israel is a Zionist state. It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be returned to the Indians, I really don't see how this works.
- doctorhandshake 5y ago
  I get your point but I'd like to be a little more optimistic and flexible about how I see the future playing out. I think at this point writing off Israel as being Zionist and never anything but is a bit like doing the same with the USA around the time of its inception, saying it'll never be anything but a slaveholding colonial fief to the British. I'd like to think there are possible futures where things change for the better, and those are the thoughts that give me hope for Israel and for Palestine as well.
  - weatherlite 5y ago
    Things can also change for the worse though, especially for the Jews living there. just saying.
    - doctorhandshake 5y ago
      You won’t hear any arguments from me about that!
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    Are you American? I'm Pro-American and I don't agree that I am not Pro-American just because I believe a decent chunk, like 5% of continental America, should be given to Native Americans if they want that. I don't see what that has to do with being Pro-American. Being selfish and greedy and nationalist are bad principles to me. That's anti-American to me.
    - weatherlite 5y ago
      Being non Zionist as far as I understand the term today is calling for the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state - by demographically allowing millions of Palestinian refugee descendants to move there and/or by violently uprooting the Jews from there as the Iranians are trying to do. So this is much more than giving up 5%.
      - skinnymuch 5y ago
        Your previous comment stated you didn't see how it can work to be pro-American and want to give land back to Native Americans. I put out 5% as a random number. That was for the continental US only. I think Hawaii, Alaska, and say another 20% of continental America should be given to Native Americans and others mistreated by my country, etc. We see understanding of terms isn't simple. I believe doing the above is very Pro-American and a great thing to do. -- I have not understood Zionism that way. I regularly see hot take news and youtube try to pigeonhole stuff into attempting to describe some one as non Zionist and then pin things like dismantling Israel as part of that descriptor. Here is a take of how not being a Zionist is not what you understand it as. Meghan McCain is as pro-Israel (alongside little if any regard for Palestine) as you can get. She wears those politics on her sleeves as transparently as you can get while having no ties to Israel outside friends with Israeli ties. "McCain said. “I would go so far as to say I probably verge on being a Zionist as well.”[0] -- > Iranians are trying to do The Iranians are not doing that much. For an example right around the corner for what trying to uproot people in a land means, you can see what is happening in Yemen. Now that is trying. Comparatively, the amount of effort going into propping up Hamas is inconsequential. It's not good. It's bad. Iran is bad here. Hamas is bad here. [0] https://www.thedailybeast.com/meghan-mccain-breaks-down-in-tears-over-ilhan-omars-scary-israel-comments https://www.thedailybeast.com/meghan-mccain-breaks-down-in-t... ----- I think this comes down more to not the literal words being used all the time. But who is saying them, how they are, and more. I know when some people, like a friend of my uncle's says he is not Zionist. Knowing him. Hell, if you hear him talk for just a little while. You know what he means. He means something closer to what you meant. The actual phrase doesn't give it away. Every thing he says gives it away. Meanwhile, I hope everything I say give away I am not like that at all. In fact, that same person I believe has essentially called me some semblance of Jewish (as a pejorative). So I mean :/
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  > It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be returned to the Indians, I really don't see how this works. I believe we should give back some of America to Native Americans. I'm American. Pro-American. How can I not be. Doesn't change not believing that who owns what land in America in 2022 is correct. -- This is simplifying things. What does pro-America mean, for example. Pro-Israel in these instances have been defined by the other commenter and myself as supporting Israel's right to their land. Though even that gets complex as I support Israel's right to their lands. What borders though? I personally believe the borders after the Yom Kippur War including Jerusalem being for Israel is fine by me. I don't know how many others agree with the Jerusalem part or the land borders of the 70s/80s being fine. I don't believe the international community agrees with some of this like East Jerusalem.
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  I'm really bummed Israel gave back all of Sinai to Egypt. The nomadic tribes in that area already keep getting screwed by Egypt. Sinai is sparsely populated. I believe a lot of the [Egyptian] population left because of the Yom Kippur War. For my fantasy thinking of what could have been: Core principles of all this is Israel's amazing awe inspiring work of being able to turn any land into gold. Along with Egypt and the other Arab powers from 49 to 73 sucked. I mean they suck today too, but those were the major military fight time periods. Arab powers had no morals or principles to go to war at any point. Most of all, they never cared about Palestinians. Egypt kept losing. Egypt does not treat Sinai outside of the are close to Suez Canal well. 60% of Sinai is kept by Israel in the 70s and 80s. As a sign of good will soon after to get back closer to the current relations, Israel gives another 1/3 back. This leaves 40%. A whopping 9K sq miles. The equivalent of all of Israel + Palestine. 20% going to Palestine, possibly the nomadics in the area too. That increases Palestine's land by close to 100%. Possibly the nomadic tribes get in on this too. The increase for Israel is close to double too. The rest would be more buffer for Israel, more land for settlements, and more space for defensive and military purposes. Even if this is too much, even dividing these numbers all by half is still huge. If this was the case, it might be worth it to simplify things and close out Gaza as much as possible as it is now. With the right politics and incentives, a majority of the population can move to Sinai territory. Gaza is such a mess, with assistance from Israel and other countries, economically, the moved land would be easy to be better. At some point during this, Hamas or similar in Gaza would increase attacks. This gives an excuse to go through with this plan. If after all this, there's a population of ~20% of Gaza remaining there, like 350K people...I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'd think giving them Israeli citizenship (as Arabs) would be best. Not all 500K would be vetted and allowed. If 250-300K are, that's not going to tilt the demographics or politics of Israel in any serious way. That's at most 3.5% of Israel's population.
  - weatherlite 5y ago
    I like the idea but what the Palestinians are fighting for isn't really a Palestinian land "somewhere". It's about returning to their old homes pre 1948. You could just as well say that Jordan is already majority Palestinian - so there's your Palestinian state, but that's not gonna end the conflict. The conflict is now religious as well. And it's about ego, and hatred, and pride, and envy. It's not something that's just waiting to be pragmatically solved unfortunately. We need to solve human psychology somehow.

weatherlite 5y ago

> I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. You're really can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist though, Israel is a Zionist state. It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be returned to the Indians, I really don't see how this works.

doctorhandshake 5y ago
I get your point but I'd like to be a little more optimistic and flexible about how I see the future playing out. I think at this point writing off Israel as being Zionist and never anything but is a bit like doing the same with the USA around the time of its inception, saying it'll never be anything but a slaveholding colonial fief to the British. I'd like to think there are possible futures where things change for the better, and those are the thoughts that give me hope for Israel and for Palestine as well.
- weatherlite 5y ago
  Things can also change for the worse though, especially for the Jews living there. just saying.
  - doctorhandshake 5y ago
    You won’t hear any arguments from me about that!
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  Are you American? I'm Pro-American and I don't agree that I am not Pro-American just because I believe a decent chunk, like 5% of continental America, should be given to Native Americans if they want that. I don't see what that has to do with being Pro-American. Being selfish and greedy and nationalist are bad principles to me. That's anti-American to me.
  - weatherlite 5y ago
    Being non Zionist as far as I understand the term today is calling for the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state - by demographically allowing millions of Palestinian refugee descendants to move there and/or by violently uprooting the Jews from there as the Iranians are trying to do. So this is much more than giving up 5%.
    - skinnymuch 5y ago
      Your previous comment stated you didn't see how it can work to be pro-American and want to give land back to Native Americans. I put out 5% as a random number. That was for the continental US only. I think Hawaii, Alaska, and say another 20% of continental America should be given to Native Americans and others mistreated by my country, etc. We see understanding of terms isn't simple. I believe doing the above is very Pro-American and a great thing to do. -- I have not understood Zionism that way. I regularly see hot take news and youtube try to pigeonhole stuff into attempting to describe some one as non Zionist and then pin things like dismantling Israel as part of that descriptor. Here is a take of how not being a Zionist is not what you understand it as. Meghan McCain is as pro-Israel (alongside little if any regard for Palestine) as you can get. She wears those politics on her sleeves as transparently as you can get while having no ties to Israel outside friends with Israeli ties. "McCain said. “I would go so far as to say I probably verge on being a Zionist as well.”[0] -- > Iranians are trying to do The Iranians are not doing that much. For an example right around the corner for what trying to uproot people in a land means, you can see what is happening in Yemen. Now that is trying. Comparatively, the amount of effort going into propping up Hamas is inconsequential. It's not good. It's bad. Iran is bad here. Hamas is bad here. [0] https://www.thedailybeast.com/meghan-mccain-breaks-down-in-tears-over-ilhan-omars-scary-israel-comments https://www.thedailybeast.com/meghan-mccain-breaks-down-in-t... ----- I think this comes down more to not the literal words being used all the time. But who is saying them, how they are, and more. I know when some people, like a friend of my uncle's says he is not Zionist. Knowing him. Hell, if you hear him talk for just a little while. You know what he means. He means something closer to what you meant. The actual phrase doesn't give it away. Every thing he says gives it away. Meanwhile, I hope everything I say give away I am not like that at all. In fact, that same person I believe has essentially called me some semblance of Jewish (as a pejorative). So I mean :/
skinnymuch 5y ago
> It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be returned to the Indians, I really don't see how this works. I believe we should give back some of America to Native Americans. I'm American. Pro-American. How can I not be. Doesn't change not believing that who owns what land in America in 2022 is correct. -- This is simplifying things. What does pro-America mean, for example. Pro-Israel in these instances have been defined by the other commenter and myself as supporting Israel's right to their land. Though even that gets complex as I support Israel's right to their lands. What borders though? I personally believe the borders after the Yom Kippur War including Jerusalem being for Israel is fine by me. I don't know how many others agree with the Jerusalem part or the land borders of the 70s/80s being fine. I don't believe the international community agrees with some of this like East Jerusalem.
skinnymuch 5y ago
I'm really bummed Israel gave back all of Sinai to Egypt. The nomadic tribes in that area already keep getting screwed by Egypt. Sinai is sparsely populated. I believe a lot of the [Egyptian] population left because of the Yom Kippur War. For my fantasy thinking of what could have been: Core principles of all this is Israel's amazing awe inspiring work of being able to turn any land into gold. Along with Egypt and the other Arab powers from 49 to 73 sucked. I mean they suck today too, but those were the major military fight time periods. Arab powers had no morals or principles to go to war at any point. Most of all, they never cared about Palestinians. Egypt kept losing. Egypt does not treat Sinai outside of the are close to Suez Canal well. 60% of Sinai is kept by Israel in the 70s and 80s. As a sign of good will soon after to get back closer to the current relations, Israel gives another 1/3 back. This leaves 40%. A whopping 9K sq miles. The equivalent of all of Israel + Palestine. 20% going to Palestine, possibly the nomadics in the area too. That increases Palestine's land by close to 100%. Possibly the nomadic tribes get in on this too. The increase for Israel is close to double too. The rest would be more buffer for Israel, more land for settlements, and more space for defensive and military purposes. Even if this is too much, even dividing these numbers all by half is still huge. If this was the case, it might be worth it to simplify things and close out Gaza as much as possible as it is now. With the right politics and incentives, a majority of the population can move to Sinai territory. Gaza is such a mess, with assistance from Israel and other countries, economically, the moved land would be easy to be better. At some point during this, Hamas or similar in Gaza would increase attacks. This gives an excuse to go through with this plan. If after all this, there's a population of ~20% of Gaza remaining there, like 350K people...I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'd think giving them Israeli citizenship (as Arabs) would be best. Not all 500K would be vetted and allowed. If 250-300K are, that's not going to tilt the demographics or politics of Israel in any serious way. That's at most 3.5% of Israel's population.
- weatherlite 5y ago
  I like the idea but what the Palestinians are fighting for isn't really a Palestinian land "somewhere". It's about returning to their old homes pre 1948. You could just as well say that Jordan is already majority Palestinian - so there's your Palestinian state, but that's not gonna end the conflict. The conflict is now religious as well. And it's about ego, and hatred, and pride, and envy. It's not something that's just waiting to be pragmatically solved unfortunately. We need to solve human psychology somehow.