5 ms·

Why is this software still legal? First the stop sign thing, now this.

readams 5y ago
Phantom braking is a problem common to many automatic emergency braking systems which are widely available on many cars, not just Tesla.
- discodave 5y ago
  Is it really a common problem? I've had a Rav4 for 3 years. I use the adaptive cruise control a lot on highway/freeway and I have never, ever had it exhibit phantom braking. It will sometimes brake a little longer than you expect for cars that are exiting on off ramps, or changing lanes, but it's always for a real car that's really going slower than I am.
  - readams 5y ago
    Here's an article talking about other similar issues: https://www.autosafety.org/autobraking-tech-will-be-standard-in-cars-by-2022-but-drivers-complain-of-phantom-braking-2/ https://www.autosafety.org/autobraking-tech-will-be-standard... It may well be more prevalent in Teslas though; I don't have any data on that.
  - aperson_hello 5y ago
    Toyota's system is one of the better ones from my experience (driving a variety of rental cars)
- k8sToGo 5y ago
  I had a Model 3 and the phantom breaking is horrible. Yes my VW ID.4 sometimes shows an orange line indicating I am too close to something, but it does not slam on the brakes. Teslas have this issue way too often.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  I've had a Subaru with Eyesight for almost six years and had zero phantom brakes during that time. I've had it disable itself momentarily (<30 seconds) due to driving against strong sunlight (it uses visible light cameras) but aside from that the system works flawlessly. I don't understand why more sophisticated systems that are continuously improved are simply expected to "commonly" phantom brake, but a much dumber/simpler system based on parallaxing two cameras (like the human eyeball, per the name) works reliably. Actually I don't understanding why nobody else is using parallax in their systems? It is basically depth information for FREE using the cameras you already have. Just angle them a little, so they overlap, and then calculate the depth.
  - readams 5y ago
    On the other hand, most systems in place today do not stop reliably when they should: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjdabZmR5Yc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjdabZmR5Yc
    - Someone1234 5y ago
      Your video is specifically about pedestrian safety systems, whereas my comment is about crash avoidance systems, apples and oranges. You may have meant to reply elsewhere.
- deeviant 5y ago
  I drive ford fusion for 5 years now that has adaptive radar cruise control, I use adaptive cruise 2 hour hours a day 5/days a week for my commute. It has never once did phantom stop.
- hermitdev 5y ago
  I've a 2013 Dodge Charger that has adaptive cruise control (ACC) & forward collision warning (FCW), but no automatic breaking except when using the ACC. I've never had any phantom breaking when on the ACC, but I also hardly use it (I can't even remember last time I turned it on). I do, however, get "phantom" warnings from the FCW. I use quotes because, to me, the false positives are understandable. They used to happen all the time approaching my old house, where there was an S-turn with a guard rail. There were times that yes, you are driving straight towards the guard rail and the FCW would warn on that, because it doesn't account for the road turning. It's a dumb smart feature; doesn't even have lane assist. For me, it's fine. I know the road ahead. I see the curve. The system doesn't. But, because it doesn't slam on the brakes for me, it's just annoying and not a safety issue to me. If the exact same FCW was capable of breaking for me all the time, yeah, I'd have issues with it and would likely have lodged complaints with Dodge & the NHTSB.
electrondood 5y ago
The "stop sign thing" was only when you had FSD set to assertive mode, were already traveling under 5.6 mph, no pedestrians were present, no other cars were taking the right of way, and the intersection's speed limit was < 30 mph. There was no actual risk involved, and it was removed immediately with an OTA update.
- soperj 5y ago
  >There was no actual risk involved, and it was removed immediately with an OTA update. Then why are they recalling them?
  - letitbeirie 5y ago
    > A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
  - junipertea 5y ago
    Because they are forced by NHTSA. I fully condone that btw.
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    They're not recalling them in the traditional sense. Tesla is not taking your car. They're just sending an OTA update that disables the behavior.
- stusmall 5y ago
  "no pedestrians were present" Should we trust their software enough to accept that it can accurately make that judgement? It's a really hard problem and they are struggling enough with the fundamentals. I don't think their software is actually at the point where they can make that assertion with any believable certainty.
- 5y ago
throwaway894345 5y ago
Because automatic braking systems are still a net positive, as frustrating as phantom braking is. It also has nothing to do with the stop sign issue.

Phantom braking is a problem common to many automatic emergency braking systems which are widely available on many cars, not just Tesla.

discodave 5y ago
Is it really a common problem? I've had a Rav4 for 3 years. I use the adaptive cruise control a lot on highway/freeway and I have never, ever had it exhibit phantom braking. It will sometimes brake a little longer than you expect for cars that are exiting on off ramps, or changing lanes, but it's always for a real car that's really going slower than I am.
- readams 5y ago
  Here's an article talking about other similar issues: https://www.autosafety.org/autobraking-tech-will-be-standard-in-cars-by-2022-but-drivers-complain-of-phantom-braking-2/ https://www.autosafety.org/autobraking-tech-will-be-standard... It may well be more prevalent in Teslas though; I don't have any data on that.
- aperson_hello 5y ago
  Toyota's system is one of the better ones from my experience (driving a variety of rental cars)
k8sToGo 5y ago
I had a Model 3 and the phantom breaking is horrible. Yes my VW ID.4 sometimes shows an orange line indicating I am too close to something, but it does not slam on the brakes. Teslas have this issue way too often.
Someone1234 5y ago
I've had a Subaru with Eyesight for almost six years and had zero phantom brakes during that time. I've had it disable itself momentarily (<30 seconds) due to driving against strong sunlight (it uses visible light cameras) but aside from that the system works flawlessly. I don't understand why more sophisticated systems that are continuously improved are simply expected to "commonly" phantom brake, but a much dumber/simpler system based on parallaxing two cameras (like the human eyeball, per the name) works reliably. Actually I don't understanding why nobody else is using parallax in their systems? It is basically depth information for FREE using the cameras you already have. Just angle them a little, so they overlap, and then calculate the depth.
- readams 5y ago
  On the other hand, most systems in place today do not stop reliably when they should: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjdabZmR5Yc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjdabZmR5Yc
  - Someone1234 5y ago
    Your video is specifically about pedestrian safety systems, whereas my comment is about crash avoidance systems, apples and oranges. You may have meant to reply elsewhere.
deeviant 5y ago
I drive ford fusion for 5 years now that has adaptive radar cruise control, I use adaptive cruise 2 hour hours a day 5/days a week for my commute. It has never once did phantom stop.
hermitdev 5y ago
I've a 2013 Dodge Charger that has adaptive cruise control (ACC) & forward collision warning (FCW), but no automatic breaking except when using the ACC. I've never had any phantom breaking when on the ACC, but I also hardly use it (I can't even remember last time I turned it on). I do, however, get "phantom" warnings from the FCW. I use quotes because, to me, the false positives are understandable. They used to happen all the time approaching my old house, where there was an S-turn with a guard rail. There were times that yes, you are driving straight towards the guard rail and the FCW would warn on that, because it doesn't account for the road turning. It's a dumb smart feature; doesn't even have lane assist. For me, it's fine. I know the road ahead. I see the curve. The system doesn't. But, because it doesn't slam on the brakes for me, it's just annoying and not a safety issue to me. If the exact same FCW was capable of breaking for me all the time, yeah, I'd have issues with it and would likely have lodged complaints with Dodge & the NHTSB.

electrondood 5y ago

The "stop sign thing" was only when you had FSD set to assertive mode, were already traveling under 5.6 mph, no pedestrians were present, no other cars were taking the right of way, and the intersection's speed limit was < 30 mph. There was no actual risk involved, and it was removed immediately with an OTA update.

soperj 5y ago
>There was no actual risk involved, and it was removed immediately with an OTA update. Then why are they recalling them?
- letitbeirie 5y ago
  > A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
- junipertea 5y ago
  Because they are forced by NHTSA. I fully condone that btw.
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  They're not recalling them in the traditional sense. Tesla is not taking your car. They're just sending an OTA update that disables the behavior.
stusmall 5y ago
"no pedestrians were present" Should we trust their software enough to accept that it can accurately make that judgement? It's a really hard problem and they are struggling enough with the fundamentals. I don't think their software is actually at the point where they can make that assertion with any believable certainty.
5y ago

throwaway894345 5y ago

Because automatic braking systems are still a net positive, as frustrating as phantom braking is. It also has nothing to do with the stop sign issue.