5 ms·

Traditional western music assigns 12 notes to an octave using a tuning known as Twelve Tone Equal Temperament[1]. These twelve tones include whole tones and sem

by pythko 5y ago

Traditional western music assigns 12 notes to an octave using a tuning known as Twelve Tone Equal Temperament[1]. These twelve tones include whole tones and semitones. The vast majority of western music is composed exclusively using these twelve notes. I believe the GGP meant to refer to “microtones,” which are frequencies that don’t fall into the Twelve Tone Equal Temperament tuning system. These are commonly used in non-western music (Indian music is a typical example), and occasionally in some western music styles (blues, some jazz, some sub-genres of rock, maybe), but you’re not going to find microtones in most western music. The use of microtones would greatly expand the set of possible melodies, but those melodies would also sound very weird to someone who has grown up listening to western music. Also, these legal cases are not decided by precisely comparing the relative frequencies of notes in two different melodies. Relating all this to the article, I personally feel like music is not a good parallel for the topic of academic plagiarism since the idea is the whole point of academic papers, whereas the point of music is harder to pin down, but it’s certainly not only to expand the set of melodies and chords used in songs. Anyways, for more on music theory, I’d suggest Adam Neely’s YouTube channel [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament [2] such as this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ghUs-84NAAU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ghUs-84NAAU

netizen-936824 5y ago
From your explanation, it feels like a pretty artificial constraint. Why have no "western" musicians used other tones say "oh we have no new melodies" but just don't include some very real possibilities? It's a bit odd from my perspective
- pessimizer 5y ago
  They do, but it's difficult because instruments aren't built for it, and people don't like it. You're free to use any tone you like to make the music that you want to make.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Perhaps people don't like it because they aren't familiar with it? Maybe all it would take is artists slowly incorporating new tones and patterns slowly for people to become accustomed
- pythko 5y ago
  It is artificial, in the sense that the western twelve tone scale is essentially arbitrary (why not 6? why not 16?), and it is a constraint in the sense that what most people consider “in tune” is defined by what they’ve gotten used to hearing. Culturally, in western music, that is twelve notes to an octave. People from all cultures can and do use notes from outside those twelve tones in music. In western music, sometimes you’ll notice (check out King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard[1]), and sometimes you probably won’t (that “raspiness” in blues music is usually because they’re singing/playing a note slightly “out of tune” aka “microtonally”). Music and “what sounds good” is a cultural construct, and I’d encourage you to check out music from around the world as well experimental microtonal artists if you’re interested in hearing what happens when you aren’t tied to the idea of twelve notes in an octave. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws
  - analog31 5y ago
    >>> (why not 6? why not 16?) 12 is the simplest scale whose intervals match the harmonic sequence. It's a technology.
    - pythko 5y ago
      The 12-TET certainly has some neat mathematical properties, but my point is that it’s not the only way to decide what “notes” are. It’s an interesting debate on whether there’s something fundamental to this particular approach that sounds good to the human ear, but I think it’s clear that there’s a hefty cultural component. It’s also worth noting that modern 12-TET is not the series of whole number ratios that someone might expect from basing it off a harmonic series [1]. It’s an approximation based off a logarithmic scale. 12 Tone Just (or “Pure”) Intonation sounds pretty weird, and in my opinion, bad. If people had been making music with 12 Tone Just Intonation for the last millennium, maybe it would sound good to me! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament#Just_intervals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament#Just_inte...
      - analog31 5y ago
        Indeed, temperament is its own technology. I assume that the music, technology, and culture co-evolved. And nothing stays constant for a millennium. Temperaments were developed and refined as music began making fuller use of the available scales and chords. Yet each system had to be within the capabilities of musicians to tune their own instruments. A harpsichord had to be tuned before every performance. Equal temperament had to wait until instruments (the modern piano) were stable enough to stay in tune between visits of the technician. To make just temperament sound "good" even relative to the ears of another time period, probably required playing music written for that particular tuning. As a double bassist, playing pitches repeatably enough to claim any specific temperament would be a lifelong challenge, if it's even attainable. Most of the time, musicians don't think about temperaments. We try to play in tune and sound good.

by pythko 5y ago

netizen-936824 5y ago

From your explanation, it feels like a pretty artificial constraint. Why have no "western" musicians used other tones say "oh we have no new melodies" but just don't include some very real possibilities? It's a bit odd from my perspective

pessimizer 5y ago
They do, but it's difficult because instruments aren't built for it, and people don't like it. You're free to use any tone you like to make the music that you want to make.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Perhaps people don't like it because they aren't familiar with it? Maybe all it would take is artists slowly incorporating new tones and patterns slowly for people to become accustomed
pythko 5y ago
It is artificial, in the sense that the western twelve tone scale is essentially arbitrary (why not 6? why not 16?), and it is a constraint in the sense that what most people consider “in tune” is defined by what they’ve gotten used to hearing. Culturally, in western music, that is twelve notes to an octave. People from all cultures can and do use notes from outside those twelve tones in music. In western music, sometimes you’ll notice (check out King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard[1]), and sometimes you probably won’t (that “raspiness” in blues music is usually because they’re singing/playing a note slightly “out of tune” aka “microtonally”). Music and “what sounds good” is a cultural construct, and I’d encourage you to check out music from around the world as well experimental microtonal artists if you’re interested in hearing what happens when you aren’t tied to the idea of twelve notes in an octave. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws
- analog31 5y ago
  >>> (why not 6? why not 16?) 12 is the simplest scale whose intervals match the harmonic sequence. It's a technology.
  - pythko 5y ago
    The 12-TET certainly has some neat mathematical properties, but my point is that it’s not the only way to decide what “notes” are. It’s an interesting debate on whether there’s something fundamental to this particular approach that sounds good to the human ear, but I think it’s clear that there’s a hefty cultural component. It’s also worth noting that modern 12-TET is not the series of whole number ratios that someone might expect from basing it off a harmonic series [1]. It’s an approximation based off a logarithmic scale. 12 Tone Just (or “Pure”) Intonation sounds pretty weird, and in my opinion, bad. If people had been making music with 12 Tone Just Intonation for the last millennium, maybe it would sound good to me! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament#Just_intervals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament#Just_inte...
    - analog31 5y ago
      Indeed, temperament is its own technology. I assume that the music, technology, and culture co-evolved. And nothing stays constant for a millennium. Temperaments were developed and refined as music began making fuller use of the available scales and chords. Yet each system had to be within the capabilities of musicians to tune their own instruments. A harpsichord had to be tuned before every performance. Equal temperament had to wait until instruments (the modern piano) were stable enough to stay in tune between visits of the technician. To make just temperament sound "good" even relative to the ears of another time period, probably required playing music written for that particular tuning. As a double bassist, playing pitches repeatably enough to claim any specific temperament would be a lifelong challenge, if it's even attainable. Most of the time, musicians don't think about temperaments. We try to play in tune and sound good.