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12, that included the semitones. Very easy to verify that on a piano, wouldn't you agree? I'm talking about conventional western music here. Also, changing the

12, that included the semitones. Very easy to verify that on a piano, wouldn't you agree? I'm talking about conventional western music here. Also, changing the backing chords doesn't actually change the melody, just makes it sound different. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think this kind of argument would fly in court. In fact there are historical precedents - like Huey Lewis vs Ghost Busters song.

netizen-936824 5y ago
Why does the distinction of "traditional western music" matter?
- pythko 5y ago
  Traditional western music assigns 12 notes to an octave using a tuning known as Twelve Tone Equal Temperament[1]. These twelve tones include whole tones and semitones. The vast majority of western music is composed exclusively using these twelve notes. I believe the GGP meant to refer to “microtones,” which are frequencies that don’t fall into the Twelve Tone Equal Temperament tuning system. These are commonly used in non-western music (Indian music is a typical example), and occasionally in some western music styles (blues, some jazz, some sub-genres of rock, maybe), but you’re not going to find microtones in most western music. The use of microtones would greatly expand the set of possible melodies, but those melodies would also sound very weird to someone who has grown up listening to western music. Also, these legal cases are not decided by precisely comparing the relative frequencies of notes in two different melodies. Relating all this to the article, I personally feel like music is not a good parallel for the topic of academic plagiarism since the idea is the whole point of academic papers, whereas the point of music is harder to pin down, but it’s certainly not only to expand the set of melodies and chords used in songs. Anyways, for more on music theory, I’d suggest Adam Neely’s YouTube channel [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament [2] such as this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ghUs-84NAAU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ghUs-84NAAU
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    From your explanation, it feels like a pretty artificial constraint. Why have no "western" musicians used other tones say "oh we have no new melodies" but just don't include some very real possibilities? It's a bit odd from my perspective
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      They do, but it's difficult because instruments aren't built for it, and people don't like it. You're free to use any tone you like to make the music that you want to make.
      - netizen-936824 5y ago
        Perhaps people don't like it because they aren't familiar with it? Maybe all it would take is artists slowly incorporating new tones and patterns slowly for people to become accustomed
    - pythko 5y ago
      It is artificial, in the sense that the western twelve tone scale is essentially arbitrary (why not 6? why not 16?), and it is a constraint in the sense that what most people consider “in tune” is defined by what they’ve gotten used to hearing. Culturally, in western music, that is twelve notes to an octave. People from all cultures can and do use notes from outside those twelve tones in music. In western music, sometimes you’ll notice (check out King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard[1]), and sometimes you probably won’t (that “raspiness” in blues music is usually because they’re singing/playing a note slightly “out of tune” aka “microtonally”). Music and “what sounds good” is a cultural construct, and I’d encourage you to check out music from around the world as well experimental microtonal artists if you’re interested in hearing what happens when you aren’t tied to the idea of twelve notes in an octave. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws
      - analog31 5y ago
        >>> (why not 6? why not 16?) 12 is the simplest scale whose intervals match the harmonic sequence. It's a technology.
analog31 5y ago
Copyright only covers melody and words, not harmony. Weird quirk of our system.

netizen-936824 5y ago

Why does the distinction of "traditional western music" matter?

pythko 5y ago
Traditional western music assigns 12 notes to an octave using a tuning known as Twelve Tone Equal Temperament[1]. These twelve tones include whole tones and semitones. The vast majority of western music is composed exclusively using these twelve notes. I believe the GGP meant to refer to “microtones,” which are frequencies that don’t fall into the Twelve Tone Equal Temperament tuning system. These are commonly used in non-western music (Indian music is a typical example), and occasionally in some western music styles (blues, some jazz, some sub-genres of rock, maybe), but you’re not going to find microtones in most western music. The use of microtones would greatly expand the set of possible melodies, but those melodies would also sound very weird to someone who has grown up listening to western music. Also, these legal cases are not decided by precisely comparing the relative frequencies of notes in two different melodies. Relating all this to the article, I personally feel like music is not a good parallel for the topic of academic plagiarism since the idea is the whole point of academic papers, whereas the point of music is harder to pin down, but it’s certainly not only to expand the set of melodies and chords used in songs. Anyways, for more on music theory, I’d suggest Adam Neely’s YouTube channel [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament [2] such as this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ghUs-84NAAU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ghUs-84NAAU
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  From your explanation, it feels like a pretty artificial constraint. Why have no "western" musicians used other tones say "oh we have no new melodies" but just don't include some very real possibilities? It's a bit odd from my perspective
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    They do, but it's difficult because instruments aren't built for it, and people don't like it. You're free to use any tone you like to make the music that you want to make.
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      Perhaps people don't like it because they aren't familiar with it? Maybe all it would take is artists slowly incorporating new tones and patterns slowly for people to become accustomed
  - pythko 5y ago
    It is artificial, in the sense that the western twelve tone scale is essentially arbitrary (why not 6? why not 16?), and it is a constraint in the sense that what most people consider “in tune” is defined by what they’ve gotten used to hearing. Culturally, in western music, that is twelve notes to an octave. People from all cultures can and do use notes from outside those twelve tones in music. In western music, sometimes you’ll notice (check out King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard[1]), and sometimes you probably won’t (that “raspiness” in blues music is usually because they’re singing/playing a note slightly “out of tune” aka “microtonally”). Music and “what sounds good” is a cultural construct, and I’d encourage you to check out music from around the world as well experimental microtonal artists if you’re interested in hearing what happens when you aren’t tied to the idea of twelve notes in an octave. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U72rbtrufws
    - analog31 5y ago
      >>> (why not 6? why not 16?) 12 is the simplest scale whose intervals match the harmonic sequence. It's a technology.

analog31 5y ago