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Self-driving Tesla does 'the craziest things you can imagine'
- User23 5y agoSounds like every other driver in Boston.
- fxtentacle 5y agoSays a guy who is short on Tesla, but despite that conflict of interest, the video looks real. I mean if he had managed to modify his car firmware to make it less safe just to fake that video, that would also be a huge Tesla safety issue.
- quantified 5y agoYou would never rent a Tesla in that case.
- mikestew 5y agoTFA makes no mention of anyone being short TSLA. Beside, the person quoted isn’t too short Tesla, since they paid for the vehicle. But, okay, let’s roll with that: after that video, you expect “the guy” to be long Tesla? There’s the avoidance of “conflict of interest”, and then there’s “I should not be left alone with large sums of money”.
- jillesvangurp 5y agoThe comment section below the article does mention this though ... The guy's twitter feed is basically one huge rant against Tesla and Elon Musk. He seems to have no other topic than that. Makes you wonder why he bought one anyway.
- mikestew 5y agoThanks for the necessary context that was inexplicably left out.
- tenpies 5y agoAre you long Tesla? Because we can all play this game. It's a very silly one, and I'm honestly concerned that the SEC, FCC, and other regulators have the same issue - the people who are suppose to be regulating companies have stocks, and those stocks affect their judgement in much the same way that Pelosi and other prominent politician-traders would never vote against their stock portfolios.
- fxtentacle 5y agoI just wanted to point out what I thought might be new information for some readers. I have no position on Tesla, neither short nor long. I just consider them for entertainment value :)
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- gdulli 5y agoIf you're anti-Tesla due to your experience with and observation of their product, legitimate reasons like that, that's not a conflict of interest. You're not starting out with a bias. You're allowed to form an opinion for the right reasons and bring it forward without it being suspect. If you're anti-Tesla because you didn't think Elon Musk was funny on SNL, or you don't like his haircut, or some other unrelated reason, that's what would be unfair. But you can't write off anyone short on Tesla as inherently biased. Otherwise you'd be writing off all criticism period.
- beeboop 5y agoThe author of TFA is a known investor in a Tesla competitor
- gr1zzlybe4r 5y agoI should be able to roll stops signs without issue on my bicycle if Teslas are able to do it.
- whynotkeithberg 5y agoPretty sure most of you do....
- quantified 5y agoWe do. But let’s be real. I would say less than 5% of drivers fully stop where I am now, and from living in Boston for a while 0% there. Cue the Boston driver jokes on the Tesla, but that’s just really bad driving there. I do not expect them to get usable self-driving for another 10-15 years at least.
- jeffbee 5y agoWhy is the Boston driver thing such a meme? The NHTSA Region 1, which is New England, has the fewest traffic fatalities per capita and per vehicle-mile. Florida, Texas, and California are twice as bad.
- quantified 5y agoIt’s the only place where a driver has waved a vodka (or other clear spirits, didn’t get a taste) bottle at me on a highway. YMMV.
- jeffbee 5y agoPlain old drunk driving seems civilized compared to the rest of the country. Let me know if you see some clown in a monster truck brandishing a Glock in Boston.
- foobarian 5y agoWhy would I stop if I can clearly see there is no one coming from the other directions? I drive a stick shift too so it helps to be able to keep some non-zero momentum. This is completely disconnected from the stereotypical bad driver barreling through the intersection completely unaware there is a stop sign at all. It's a different story on 4-way stop intersections. You look at who is where, which order they stopped in, and go when it's your turn. The real bottom line ultimately is, are the average accident rates up or not?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- thesausageking 5y agoAbridged history of Elon's self-driving predictions: 2015: "We’re going to end up with complete autonomy, and I think we will have complete autonomy in approximately two years." 2016: "I really consider autonomous driving a solved problem, I think we are less than two years away from complete autonomy, safer than humans, but regulations should take at least another year." 2018: "I think probably by end of next year (2019) self-driving will encompass essentially all modes of driving and be at least 100% to 200% safer than a person." 2019: "We need to be at 99.9999..% We need to be extremely reliable. When do we think it is safe for FSD, probably towards the end of this year then its up to the regulators when they will decide to approve that." 2019: "I feel very confident predicting autonomous robotaxis for Tesla next year." 2020: "I am extremely confident of achieving full autonomy and releasing it to the Tesla customer base next year. But I think at least some jurisdictions are going to allow full self-driving next year." 2021: "Tesla Full Self-Driving will work at a safety level well above that of the average driver this year, of that I am confident. Can’t speak for regulators though."
- avs733 5y agothe increasing shift to blaming regulators is really notable when you put this on a timeline. Would be nice if people reacted with the historical knowledge about what Musk says rather than just the presumption that he is being true and honest when he blames them for Tesla/SpaceX's problems.
- FireBeyond 5y agoExactly. Regulators are getting more involved in this space because they should be, anyway, and because Tesla has repeatedly demonstrated that if they don't, Tesla will take more and more risks. Regulators have nothing to do with FSD's failure to recognize: roundabouts, stationary vehicles, trains at level crossings, or its "selective observation" of road law.
- hughrr 5y agoGot to give the guy his due though: the average capitalist bastard couldn’t literally sell a promise like that and hold it off for half a decade yet still maintain a rabid fanbase stating it’ll be any minute now and shooting down any dissident opinion. /s for the sake of the challenged. I figured most of the cars that had FSD paid for will be scrap before it happens.
- hughrr 5y agoI think full self driving is the same distance away as cold fusion.
- gerikson 5y agoBut is it closer than Linux on the desktop?
- hughrr 5y agoThe irony of this is there is probably more Unix on your wrist than Linux on the desktop.
- mrtranscendence 5y agoAs someone who's heavily bought into the Apple ecosystem, I'm surrounded by Unix all the time, technically. On my wrist, in my pocket, on my lap. And I'm surrounded by Linux, too, at least at work. But Linux on the desktop? How delightfully absurd! Nah, I really want my next PC build to run Linux. But that'll have to wait a while ... just paid $4k for a vacation. My girlfriend wasn't sympathetic that $4k would pay for an awesome rig instead.
- hughrr 5y agoI tried Linux on a fairly hefty Ryzen rig recently and it was the usual shit show. HiDPI doesn’t even work properly with wayland yet. My next $4k rig is going to be an iMac. Typing this on my iPad in a hotel. That’s the life.
- mrtranscendence 5y agoI'm sympathetic, and I don't think I'd ever run Linux as my primary compute. But as a secondary machine that gives me a chance to tinker where failure doesn't really matter, it seems viable.
- 5y ago
- MisterTea 5y agoWhat surprises me is the simple fact that these self "driving" cars are allowed on the road without any federal oversight at all. Meanwhile you could not legally register a Mercedes Benz car that only has ONE wiper blade because it did not meet federal safety requirements. Yet somehow replacing the human in the drivers seat, the most safety critical part of the whole damn car, with a gpu, camera, and junk code is no problem. Even after multiple stories of accidents and deaths caused by them. And another point, touching LCD screens while operating a car is perfectly legal but touching a phone screen isn't. At what point did the system stop caring or was paid to stop caring? Have the tech companies subverted the government and our safety for profit? WTF is going one here?
- bo1024 5y agoNot a huge regulations-by-default person but I agree strongly with this. The other issue is accountability laundering. If a human kills someone they're criminally responsible. If a company's software does it then they'll shift blame onto the human passenger or deflect into a small fine, at the worst. If I can't trust the incentives then I can't trust the tech.
- donatj 5y ago> Even after multiple stories of accidents and deaths caused by them. How many accidents and deaths are caused by human drivers? I haven't checked the stats but it has to be non-zero.
- andrewla 5y agohttps://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/fsd https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/fsd is the current definitive take on the subject. Watching this video I really had no idea how bad it was. My opinion is that we will never have full self driving without infrastructure updates; basically putting the cars on rails and forbidding non-self-driving cars and pedestrians. Even then it's dicey. At least part of the reason is that a self-driving car can never have skin in the game. So if you want to cut off a self-driving car, go for it! If there's a busy exit and you want to cut in line, find the FSD and go in front -- with a real driver there's a chance, however small, that they would play chicken, but an FSD never will. If you want to pass a FSD and there's not enough room, just do it anyway. Even worse will be when FSDs learn these behaviors by observing them and use them on other FSDs, and then you have a race to the bottom.
- hughrr 5y agoThis. So much this. It’s 2022. We still have meat flavoured train drivers and they have a massively constrained set of complexity to navigate.
- mrtranscendence 5y ago> So if you want to cut off a self-driving car, go for it! I'm not sure. Maybe it's my anxiety speaking but that sounds pretty dangerous, at least over time. An autonomous car may not play chicken but it can still make mistakes, or be unable to brake in time. There's also no way to know that a car is being autonomously driven since, currently, someone has to have their hands on the wheel.
- treebog 5y agoIt is well past time for government to step in and get these dangerous cars off the road.
- antattack 5y agoStupidity is doing the same thing over and over again. Obviously the system is not ready for such narrow streets with no line markings and bad visibility. Just don't engage it in such situations. I sure hope that the future iterations of FSD beta will assess the environment and ask the driver to take over sooner.
- droopyEyelids 5y agoDon't other manufacturers limit their level 2 systems to mapped and known-good highways? And, for example, my Ford will turn off blue cruise and lanekeeping if it detects it can not handle the environment.
- ollien 5y agoMy Subaru will not enable lane-keep below highway speeds. Adaptive cruise control can be done at any speed (greater than zero... it turns itself off if traffic is stopped), though.
- bo1024 5y agoI look forward to the new name for the system. 'Totally Self Driving now can drive over 14% of the time, a 4% improvement from Full Self Driving. Look out soon for the next release, Completely Self Driving.'
- SAI_Peregrinus 5y agoThe USB-IF normalized that sort of naming sillyness, I fully expect it to spread.
- majewsky 5y agoFull Self-Driving 3.1 Release 2 SuperSpeed Beta 16 With Extra Cheese
- powerbroker 5y agoI Can't Believe Its Not Self Driving (™)
- throwaway2016a 5y agoThe driver probably has it in "assertive" mode. Outside of assertive mode it is actually annoyingly conservative. So much so that I often take manual control at turns to avoid impatient drivers honking at me as it inches through the intersection. With that said, I hate driving in Boston, so much so whenever I go there I park outside the city and take the T (subway) the rest of the way. I would not turn on FSD in Boston in a million years. I live in a mid-sized city much smaller than Boston and it does "ok" but even there I take manual control when downtown.
- si1entstill 5y agoI've no experience with a Tesla, but Boston is a particularly unforgiving driving environment. I find it less stressful driving in NYC.
- throwaway2016a 5y agoI don't know what it is about Boston... maybe it's the pedestrians that don't check for traffic at all, or the taxis that split lanes, or maybe the five way intersections, or maybe the construction, or the tunnels and overpasses, or the fact the roads were laid out for horses and have absolutely no rhyme or reason most of the time... the list is long :P Never driven in NYC, though I have walked through it as a pedestrian... it seems easier to deal with.
- dylan604 5y agoAs someone that used to live 45 minutes outside of town, I'd kind of be okay with allowing the car to drive the monotonous highway bits and then taking over manual control for the city bits of driving.
- johnsimer 5y agoAutopilot already does that very well and has for a few years and comes for free with each Tesla. you don’t need to pay the $12k FSD package for that
- npace12 5y agoJust to clarify the current process of being able to use the Tesla FSD beta because I've seen a lot of comments by people thinking Tesla released this and cars are now just driving around without a human driver: 1. pay $12k or $200/mo 2. Opt-in for beta. Drive over 100-200 miles and maintain a 98%+ "safety score" until you're selected (could be months) 3. Manually activate FSD each time you want to use it 4. Keep hands on wheel while it's going on and prepare to take over (it beeps and deactivates if you don't) 5. Be continuously recorded by a camera while FSD is on
- simion314 5y agoShould this be legal? Some rich Tesla fanboy beta testing buggy software with a misleading name of autopilot or FSD ont he streets where your children walk? I am not aware of such laws but they shoudl exist, otherwise other companies can start alpha testing with random fanboys.
- jondwillis 5y agoAs one of the “rich Tesla fanboys” you describe, no, probably it should not be legal. That being said, it has made me re-realize that humans are really terrible drivers as well, myself included, just less terrible on average, currently.
- CultMember001 5y ago
- CultMember009 5y ago
- CultMember009 5y agoI respect your honesty and encourage you to try some remedial driving lessons to avoid being a “really terrible driver.” It can save your life and others also.
- dawnerd 5y agoThis pretty much matches my experiences too. When it does stuff right it’s great. But then it goes and tries to swerve into a fast approaching car, change lanes in an intersection, decide last minute the turn lane you’re in in actually a straight through lane, checks that the brakes work on a wide open road, etc I’m sure some people are more comfortable letting the car do these things but I feel it’s just a matter of time until one of them gets in an accident. Of course Tesla would have an out saying the person should have been paying attention, it’s still beta and so on. I just don’t feel confident the current sensor suite can allow for level 4.
- oxplot 5y agoYou’re actually supposed to intervene anytime it does the slightest thing wrong. It’s the interventions that signal to Tesla what to improve. I’ve seen many testers letting it “play out”. That’s probably dangerous and no help towards improving things.
- mountainriver 5y agoEveryone wants to hate on Elon but he’s making incredible progress in machine learning. Tesla and OpenAI have done more for the field than almost anyone in the last decade, except maybe Google.
- simion314 5y agoWhat progress exactly? Did Tesla actually invented anything related to ML or are just training and annotating and maybe creating if-else rules. Am I wrong or the number of times people take over to avoid a crash is a secret?
- ra7 5y agoHow are you claiming this? There are tons of research publications from the likes of Google, Facebook etc. Does Tesla ever publish AI/ML research?
- sidibe 5y agoNo instead they have AI days where they get up on stage and stupify and thrill investors with their technicality and claims everything is almost ready. Last year they made it sound like Dojo was a done deal, last week in earnings call they made it sound not ready, but also not necessarily useful
- krnlpnc 5y agoThese days when I'm near a Tesla on the road I use the same caution as if driving near an obviously drunk driver. Give them lots of space and prepare for them to act unpredictably.
- hughrr 5y agoMy father has a 2019 P100D model S. I’ve driven it a few times. It feels like you’re driving a cross between a budget Android tablet and a somewhat skittish horse with a rocket engine up its ass. What could possibly go wrong? On the last two occasions it has dumped on the brakes in the middle of an empty road for no reason. My usual wheels are a crappy French dumb city car with a peanut for an engine and I feel safer in that with a large truck driving 6 feet off my ass. Edit: also my crappy French thing actually has CarPlay rather than the shit show mess Tesla came up with.
- soheil 5y agoI think you should ride a horse, maybe cars just aren't your thing.
- jacquesm 5y agoThat's interesting: this would if enough people do it skew Teslas towards being very safe vehicles!
- garbageT 5y agoDisclaimer about this guy Ogan, if you track his online accounts it’s very anti-Tesla auto-pilot/self-driving. Rightfully so in some situations. Also he is a investor in a Chinese competitor to Tesla (EV and self-driving abilities). Take his words with a grain of salt.
- woodgrainz 5y agoWell, it seems like he has a reason to be highly skeptical of Tesla auto-pilot, based on how awful and dangerous the technology appears to be. Not to mention Musk's repeated broken promises about the timeline and functionality.
- beeboop 5y agoanti Musk and anti Tesla astroturfing is a tale as old as time. A lot of it has always been rooted in people with financial interests in Tesla doing poorly I always flag these topics. The comments are nearly verbatim identical to the last 20 times FSD gets posted and nothing about the conversation is interesting
- hughrr 5y agoaka the problems are the same as they were. That’s a good metric for the lack of progress on the issues.
- beeboop 5y agoaka there's been a lot of progress and people still like to say there hasn't been and that elon should be sued for fraud because it isn't a perfect self driving machine yet
- FireBeyond 5y agoLike Elon has himself said in corporate communications, and documents lodged with the SEC, for years on end?
- 5y ago
- garbageT 5y agoOP looks like Ogan himself. Mostly anti-Tesla posts.
- bagels 5y agoThis whole situation fascinates me. At what point do people start suing Tesla for fraud? There is no evidence that Musk's claims about FSD will ever be true.
- rmbyrro 5y agoI'm confused: > "evidence that [...] will be true" Apart from provably recurring events already observed (e.g. Sun/Moon position in the sky), how can one present evidence for the future? And what kind of society start suing people for fraud for failing to provide evidence for the future?
- deegles 5y agoI'm surprised other self driving car companies haven't tried to file a lawsuit to get Tesla FSD more regulated. If a Tesla FSD ends up in a(nother) notable accident, the ensuing media and regulation backlash will set back the whole industry by years. As it stands today, I wouldn't let someone driving activate FSD, much less use it myself.
- 6510 5y agoI keep comparing it to rails. Streetcars solved many of the self driving problems. Its not to hate on self driving cars but its cool to look back how they accomplished all that with the tools of the time. Imagine how batteries or a flywheel could bridge large gaps in overhead cables. If you run them on tax money and build enough lines I imagine convenience could be superior to cars.
- lincpa 5y ago
- daveslash 5y ago>> "Ogan said he shared the video because he’s seen a lot of “perfectly curated” videos of people using the Tesla self-driving feature on beautiful roads in California with no issues" Emphasis mine. Yeah, this is where the value of the human being can't be over stated. There are plenty of times where road conditions "just don't make sense" and it takes a certain level of intelligence, intuition, and experience to even attempt to make a right call (and even then, sometimes you're making the situation worse and other nearby drivers have to adapt to you). For example: Road construction, or after they've paved the roads but haven't put down the lines, or when they've painted lines over other lines so there are conflicting lane markings, or detours that send you down one way streets marked "wrong way", etc....
- pupppet 5y agoSelf-driving is absolutely coming. With that 'self' being some $2/hour Uber driver virtually driving from their couch.
- nunez 5y agotesla bad clickbait. of course FSD does crazy shit right now; it's beta and it's learning! That's why you agree to not become complacent and have full control over steering at all times. in my experience, it works well 95% of the time, but the 5% unpredictability factor is way too high, which is why I don't use it with passengers in the car unless asked to do so. more specifically, I might manually maneuver the car less than 2 miles out of a 20 mile trip with FSD beta enabled, which is an improvement over the 5 miles I would manually maneuver with FSD stable. but it's getting better, and it's definitely better than anything else you can use on public roads, so I'm sticking with it.
- MisterTea 5y ago> which is why I don't use it with passengers in the car unless asked to do so. If a fellow passenger's safety concern is enough to stop you from enabling it, would you consider a 3rd parties request: As a pedestrian, cyclist and driver I ask that you never engage your autopilot on a public street which I may be crossing, riding or driving on as I have concerns about its safety. I am also sure most other people doing the same would agree. Thank you.
- WelcomeShorty 5y agoWatching the film I knew where I have experienced these exact same problems: When I thought my wife and kids to drive! Incredible how many of the exact same mistakes it makes as they did.