4 ms·

I'm not really trying to define anything - but yeah, unless we concretely set the pantone of the car by cross-referencing it or something, maybe that colour is

I'm not really trying to define anything - but yeah, unless we concretely set the pantone of the car by cross-referencing it or something, maybe that colour is still up for debate? The pantone thing would be the microscope equivalent in the post.

danbruc 5y ago
No, the color of the car is never up for debate, what is up for debate are your believes about what the color is or how to best describe or quantify what you perceive or belief.
- tomlockwood 5y ago
  How would you tell?
  - danbruc 5y ago
    Tell what?
    - tomlockwood 5y ago
      That the colour of the car wasn't up for debate. What would you measure to determine qualities like this aren't up for debate?
      - danbruc 5y ago
        You could measure something like the bidirectional scattering distribution function [1] including its wavelength dependence. Or something even fancier that accounts for polarization and displacement due to subsurface scattering and what not. The important thing is that you can objectively quantify the color and appearance of the car in great detail mostly limited by your dedication and budget. And with that information you could recreate the color of the car and how the paint looks under some given lighting conditions which can also be quantified. There is really nothing to be debated here, at best maybe the fidelity and sophistication of an realization of this method and whether it is good enough for a given purpose. And I just say this, there is nothing to be measured in order to determine whether something is up for debate or not. This is a question of logic and philosophy and physics. Being up for debate means that there must be different opinions. This can happen due to a lack of information or knowledge. Or due to unspecified assumptions. And probably more. Whether you should have high or low tax rates is up for debate. This right answer will depend on your goals. On the behavior of people and societies and your knowledge of and assumption about those things. About whom do you care, who is affected how? The better you know how things work and the clearer your goals are, the less room will there be for debate. But what could you debate about the physical properties of the paint of the car? They are facts of the universe - at least unless or our understanding of the universe is really radically wrong. You can measure them. But opinions you can only have about relating things, not what the color is but how it looks to you. What it reminds you of. How you name or describe it. What it looks to a color blind person. What you think it looks to a color blind person. Whether it was worth the money. Whether it should be changed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidirectional_scattering_distribution_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidirectional_scattering_distr...
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        > And I just say this, there is nothing to be measured in order to determine whether something is up for debate or not. This is a question of logic and philosophy and physics. Being up for debate means that there must be different opinions. But there are different opinions about what colour things are. > They are facts of the universe What would you measure to determine that the facts of the universe don't change when you look away?
        danbruc 5y ago
        But there are different opinions about what colour things are. You might have the opinion that the bowl on the table in front contains 200 M&Ms while I think that there are at least 300. You might change your mind and switch to 150. Nothing of that changes the fact that the bowl contains 217 M&Ms. What would you measure to determine that the facts of the universe don't change when you look away? I would just ask someone that looked while I wasn't. More seriously, you just have to stop somewhere. You can not draw any conclusions if you consider the possibility that the universe might become two dimensional any moment and one plus one afterwards no longer equals two. But even if the electromagnetic properties of atoms vary over time or when no one looks, there would still be a possibility - at least a theoretical one - to objectively characterize the color, now you just have to deal with a reflectivity that not only varies with wavelength and angel and so on but also time and number of onlookers.
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        > You can not draw any conclusions if you consider the possibility that the universe might become two dimensional any moment and one plus one afterwards no longer equals two. It really might though. There could be a false vacuum. And yet, here I am, drawing conclusions constantly.
        danbruc 5y ago
        But considering vacuum decay is not the same as allowing arbitrary things. And I didn't mean concluding which job offer to take which is hardly affected by the nature of the vacuum. If you, for example, seriously consider that physical laws might change any moment, this should probably influence your decisions. If you see it as some purely theoretical possibility with probability ten to ten to the ten to the... then you can ignore it for all practical purposes, if you think it happens with fifty percent probability in the next hour might be worth considering.

danbruc 5y ago

No, the color of the car is never up for debate, what is up for debate are your believes about what the color is or how to best describe or quantify what you perceive or belief.

tomlockwood 5y ago
How would you tell?
- danbruc 5y ago
  Tell what?
  - tomlockwood 5y ago
    That the colour of the car wasn't up for debate. What would you measure to determine qualities like this aren't up for debate?
    - danbruc 5y ago
      You could measure something like the bidirectional scattering distribution function [1] including its wavelength dependence. Or something even fancier that accounts for polarization and displacement due to subsurface scattering and what not. The important thing is that you can objectively quantify the color and appearance of the car in great detail mostly limited by your dedication and budget. And with that information you could recreate the color of the car and how the paint looks under some given lighting conditions which can also be quantified. There is really nothing to be debated here, at best maybe the fidelity and sophistication of an realization of this method and whether it is good enough for a given purpose. And I just say this, there is nothing to be measured in order to determine whether something is up for debate or not. This is a question of logic and philosophy and physics. Being up for debate means that there must be different opinions. This can happen due to a lack of information or knowledge. Or due to unspecified assumptions. And probably more. Whether you should have high or low tax rates is up for debate. This right answer will depend on your goals. On the behavior of people and societies and your knowledge of and assumption about those things. About whom do you care, who is affected how? The better you know how things work and the clearer your goals are, the less room will there be for debate. But what could you debate about the physical properties of the paint of the car? They are facts of the universe - at least unless or our understanding of the universe is really radically wrong. You can measure them. But opinions you can only have about relating things, not what the color is but how it looks to you. What it reminds you of. How you name or describe it. What it looks to a color blind person. What you think it looks to a color blind person. Whether it was worth the money. Whether it should be changed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidirectional_scattering_distribution_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidirectional_scattering_distr...
      - tomlockwood 5y ago
        > And I just say this, there is nothing to be measured in order to determine whether something is up for debate or not. This is a question of logic and philosophy and physics. Being up for debate means that there must be different opinions. But there are different opinions about what colour things are. > They are facts of the universe What would you measure to determine that the facts of the universe don't change when you look away?
        danbruc 5y ago
        But there are different opinions about what colour things are. You might have the opinion that the bowl on the table in front contains 200 M&Ms while I think that there are at least 300. You might change your mind and switch to 150. Nothing of that changes the fact that the bowl contains 217 M&Ms. What would you measure to determine that the facts of the universe don't change when you look away? I would just ask someone that looked while I wasn't. More seriously, you just have to stop somewhere. You can not draw any conclusions if you consider the possibility that the universe might become two dimensional any moment and one plus one afterwards no longer equals two. But even if the electromagnetic properties of atoms vary over time or when no one looks, there would still be a possibility - at least a theoretical one - to objectively characterize the color, now you just have to deal with a reflectivity that not only varies with wavelength and angel and so on but also time and number of onlookers.
        tomlockwood 5y ago
        > You can not draw any conclusions if you consider the possibility that the universe might become two dimensional any moment and one plus one afterwards no longer equals two. It really might though. There could be a false vacuum. And yet, here I am, drawing conclusions constantly.
        danbruc 5y ago
        But considering vacuum decay is not the same as allowing arbitrary things. And I didn't mean concluding which job offer to take which is hardly affected by the nature of the vacuum. If you, for example, seriously consider that physical laws might change any moment, this should probably influence your decisions. If you see it as some purely theoretical possibility with probability ten to ten to the ten to the... then you can ignore it for all practical purposes, if you think it happens with fifty percent probability in the next hour might be worth considering.