5 ms·

Isn't it more poststructural? E.g. instead of some well defined "this one person invented X" narrative structure being the way society happens, the reality is m

Isn't it more poststructural? E.g. instead of some well defined "this one person invented X" narrative structure being the way society happens, the reality is more often nuanced (and badly recorded) with multiple personal involvements with the new concept. Though I think this is more just the subject of 'history' and figuring out what exactly happened. Some people seem to get defensive when they find it the history they have been taught is challenged. Why not be wearisome about the flawed system/culture that keeps promulgating half truths?

graderjs 5y ago
> Isn't it more poststructural? I'm not an expert, so it might be. Although I tend to think that postmodern is a rejection of any objective authority truth. Whereas from what I understand about poststructuralists, they still believe there's some sort of Truth you can attain, they just disagree with structuralists about how to get there. And in this case I tend to feel it's more of a post-modern "tearing down anything that seems like an authority truth" than anything else. > Though I think this is more just the subject of 'history' and figuring out what exactly happened. Agree. > Some people seem to get defensive when they find it the history they have been taught is challenged. Why not be wearisome about the flawed system/culture that keeps promulgating half truths? Agree. but I think you can replace some people with most people. And it's very understandable to feel scared and angry when someone challenges what you think is true about reality.
- aksss 5y ago
  Or simply boring. Telling a more nuanced story of credit is one thing, but continually seeking new angles to further deconstruct for its own sake starts to feel unproductive after a few rounds. It wasn’t this guy, Bob, it was this team; it wasn’t this team, it was really their moms who gave them a healthy breakfast each morning; it wasn’t really their moms, it was the vision and leadership of this guy Bob who was very troubled; it wasn’t this guy Bob but a woman and another guy on his team who were robbed of credit despite their struggles; it wasn’t the woman and the guy, the sugar industry lobby conspired to keep you from knowing the real story; damn, but this guy bob was cool; Bob was enabled by an industry supported by child labor. By unproductive I mean not adding much of substance but looking for rando new angles to make the story “interesting”. One of those angles comes with the accusation that you’ve been a willing victim of perpetuating untruth but here’s the REAL story. And I fully realize I’m old man yelling at cloud here. This is the way of popular culture story telling, but there’s some unspoken bargain in the dynamic with the audience that I feel is a bit insulting. That history need spicy new angles or interpretation to be of interest; that these layers are so often pitifully thin takes; that you stick around long enough you see it go full circle more than once. It’s a distraction from real learning.
  - graderjs 5y ago
    Or old woman, I guess, yelling at cloud. Comment is WIP. I may add more comments in or below as I think about it.
    - graderjs 5y ago
      > One of those angles comes with the accusation that you’ve been a willing victim of perpetuating untruth but here’s the REAL story. Totally. Well identified. I'd always been dimly aware that this was a thing but your words really brought it into focus for me. Thank you. Sometimes discussions on hn can really be enlightening. Thinking more about this I had the inspired thought that perhaps this is about a sort of civilizational decline in that instead of coming up with new stories, (inspirationally new tales of new things) we are just like a snake eating its own tail, like endlessly copying (a copy of a copy of a copy, in the fight club lingo), like the criticism that we hurl at the East (they are endlessly copying things) but in fact we're just endlessly copying things in our in our own culture. rather than delivering new, We're just constantly deconstructing. and that might be a symptom or even a cause of the sort of decline that we're in... Very interesting reflections and nice to be inspired by your comment to draw these two points together: the sort of civilizational decline of the West, and this trope about endlessly deconstructing histories that we're obviously engaging in.
  - mxmilkiib 5y ago
    Your complaining about something that hasn't happened here? Ok
    - graderjs 5y ago
      But telling a valid story about something that definitely happens (the seemingly endless cycle of deconstruction in cultural storytelling) in the culture. All the time. That's definitely interesting, I guess. Tho I get if you don't find that interesting. But that seems to be willfully looking away from something that's happening in the culture. okay
      - 5y ago

graderjs 5y ago

> Isn't it more poststructural? I'm not an expert, so it might be. Although I tend to think that postmodern is a rejection of any objective authority truth. Whereas from what I understand about poststructuralists, they still believe there's some sort of Truth you can attain, they just disagree with structuralists about how to get there. And in this case I tend to feel it's more of a post-modern "tearing down anything that seems like an authority truth" than anything else. > Though I think this is more just the subject of 'history' and figuring out what exactly happened. Agree. > Some people seem to get defensive when they find it the history they have been taught is challenged. Why not be wearisome about the flawed system/culture that keeps promulgating half truths? Agree. but I think you can replace some people with most people. And it's very understandable to feel scared and angry when someone challenges what you think is true about reality.

aksss 5y ago
Or simply boring. Telling a more nuanced story of credit is one thing, but continually seeking new angles to further deconstruct for its own sake starts to feel unproductive after a few rounds. It wasn’t this guy, Bob, it was this team; it wasn’t this team, it was really their moms who gave them a healthy breakfast each morning; it wasn’t really their moms, it was the vision and leadership of this guy Bob who was very troubled; it wasn’t this guy Bob but a woman and another guy on his team who were robbed of credit despite their struggles; it wasn’t the woman and the guy, the sugar industry lobby conspired to keep you from knowing the real story; damn, but this guy bob was cool; Bob was enabled by an industry supported by child labor. By unproductive I mean not adding much of substance but looking for rando new angles to make the story “interesting”. One of those angles comes with the accusation that you’ve been a willing victim of perpetuating untruth but here’s the REAL story. And I fully realize I’m old man yelling at cloud here. This is the way of popular culture story telling, but there’s some unspoken bargain in the dynamic with the audience that I feel is a bit insulting. That history need spicy new angles or interpretation to be of interest; that these layers are so often pitifully thin takes; that you stick around long enough you see it go full circle more than once. It’s a distraction from real learning.
- graderjs 5y ago
  Or old woman, I guess, yelling at cloud. Comment is WIP. I may add more comments in or below as I think about it.
  - graderjs 5y ago
    > One of those angles comes with the accusation that you’ve been a willing victim of perpetuating untruth but here’s the REAL story. Totally. Well identified. I'd always been dimly aware that this was a thing but your words really brought it into focus for me. Thank you. Sometimes discussions on hn can really be enlightening. Thinking more about this I had the inspired thought that perhaps this is about a sort of civilizational decline in that instead of coming up with new stories, (inspirationally new tales of new things) we are just like a snake eating its own tail, like endlessly copying (a copy of a copy of a copy, in the fight club lingo), like the criticism that we hurl at the East (they are endlessly copying things) but in fact we're just endlessly copying things in our in our own culture. rather than delivering new, We're just constantly deconstructing. and that might be a symptom or even a cause of the sort of decline that we're in... Very interesting reflections and nice to be inspired by your comment to draw these two points together: the sort of civilizational decline of the West, and this trope about endlessly deconstructing histories that we're obviously engaging in.
- mxmilkiib 5y ago
  Your complaining about something that hasn't happened here? Ok
  - graderjs 5y ago
    But telling a valid story about something that definitely happens (the seemingly endless cycle of deconstruction in cultural storytelling) in the culture. All the time. That's definitely interesting, I guess. Tho I get if you don't find that interesting. But that seems to be willfully looking away from something that's happening in the culture. okay
    - 5y ago