3 ms·

What caused me some distress in this is news item is that as far as I can understand, her statement was correct, it is my understanding that Jews are a religiou

by dusted 5y ago

What caused me some distress in this is news item is that as far as I can understand, her statement was correct, it is my understanding that Jews are a religious group, not a race. No matter how one defines race, I do not know of any widespread religion or belief system that is exclusive to a single race? It may be be my ignorance about holocaust, but I understand that it was a genocide of Jews, not a specific race, is this wrong information?

throwawaynay 5y ago
For the Jewish part I'm convinced it's correct. However there is the mostly forgotten Romani genocide part that was definitely about race.
- aaron695 5y ago
detaro 5y ago
Some starting points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F Note how ethnic factors are mentioned a lot. "Jewishness" gets mostly inherited, and is thus tightly intertwined with ethnicity and "race" (scare quotes because its IMHO not an all-that-useful or well-defined term). > No matter how one defines race The Nazis were very explicit about exterminating the "Jewish Race": people with ancestors that were Jewish. If people get prosecuted because some of their ancestors were Jewish, without consideration for their own religious practice, you can't pretend it was "just" religious persecution. (also to be noted that this is indeed different than many other instances of anti-jewish policies in history which were motivated by religion not race and did not include people who were not practicing Jews)
- throwawaynay 5y ago
  So the basis for determining whether a group is a race is the thoughts and actions of some psychotic meth-addicted tyrants? It's a belief system, a way of thinking, just because some lunatic decide to persecute anyone blood related to someone with a certain belief system or who thinks a certain way doesn't make it a race. If someone want to exterminate what he decides to call the Scientologist race and anyone related to them, does that mean it suddenly becomes a race? And Jews believe it only gets inherited through the mother, that's not how race works. A biracial man with a black father and a white mother is just as white or just as black than a biracial man with a white father.
- dusted 5y ago
  Thank you, that was insightful. So it's kind of granted that in order for someone to define Jews as a race, one has to agree with the nazi definition of Jew. This makes the ban even more perplexing, so on one hand ABC chose the nazi definition and on the other they (I assume) distance themselves from everything else the nazis said or belived..
  - detaro 5y ago
    > So it's kind of granted that in order for someone to define Jews as a race, one has to agree with the nazi definition of Jew. I'm genuinely curious how you think that the first part of my comment and the links there don't support the concept?
    - dusted 5y ago
      The text I find with the word "race" is when explaining that the nazis are defining Jews as a race. I cant seem but to find the idea of defining a race as "anyone belonging to this religion" so incomprehensible that I probably can't read the text the way it's supposed to be read. Does that mean that simply being born to a Jewish father makes you a part of the Jewish race? Does it then mean that by rejecting your religion, your race changes? I guess I really have no idea what race means.

by dusted 5y ago

throwawaynay 5y ago

For the Jewish part I'm convinced it's correct. However there is the mostly forgotten Romani genocide part that was definitely about race.

aaron695 5y ago

detaro 5y ago

Some starting points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F Note how ethnic factors are mentioned a lot. "Jewishness" gets mostly inherited, and is thus tightly intertwined with ethnicity and "race" (scare quotes because its IMHO not an all-that-useful or well-defined term). > No matter how one defines race The Nazis were very explicit about exterminating the "Jewish Race": people with ancestors that were Jewish. If people get prosecuted because some of their ancestors were Jewish, without consideration for their own religious practice, you can't pretend it was "just" religious persecution. (also to be noted that this is indeed different than many other instances of anti-jewish policies in history which were motivated by religion not race and did not include people who were not practicing Jews)

throwawaynay 5y ago
So the basis for determining whether a group is a race is the thoughts and actions of some psychotic meth-addicted tyrants? It's a belief system, a way of thinking, just because some lunatic decide to persecute anyone blood related to someone with a certain belief system or who thinks a certain way doesn't make it a race. If someone want to exterminate what he decides to call the Scientologist race and anyone related to them, does that mean it suddenly becomes a race? And Jews believe it only gets inherited through the mother, that's not how race works. A biracial man with a black father and a white mother is just as white or just as black than a biracial man with a white father.
dusted 5y ago
Thank you, that was insightful. So it's kind of granted that in order for someone to define Jews as a race, one has to agree with the nazi definition of Jew. This makes the ban even more perplexing, so on one hand ABC chose the nazi definition and on the other they (I assume) distance themselves from everything else the nazis said or belived..
- detaro 5y ago
  > So it's kind of granted that in order for someone to define Jews as a race, one has to agree with the nazi definition of Jew. I'm genuinely curious how you think that the first part of my comment and the links there don't support the concept?
  - dusted 5y ago
    The text I find with the word "race" is when explaining that the nazis are defining Jews as a race. I cant seem but to find the idea of defining a race as "anyone belonging to this religion" so incomprehensible that I probably can't read the text the way it's supposed to be read. Does that mean that simply being born to a Jewish father makes you a part of the Jewish race? Does it then mean that by rejecting your religion, your race changes? I guess I really have no idea what race means.