10 ms·

It used to be that there were two countries which taxed citizens regardless of residency, USA and Libya. Now I guess there's just one.

peteretep 15y ago
Unrelated: when the US had its difficult moment recently, someone on my Twitter feed pointed out that "Now all the AAA countries have free universal health care!"
- sp332 15y ago
  Universal healthcare isn't free. Maybe it's not a bad deal, but it costs a lot of money.
  - adaml_623 15y ago
    It's free for the people who couldn't afford it otherwise. Which is a great deal that many of us who pay for it are happy to contribute to.
    - sp332 15y ago
      That's fine, but I'm worried what would happen when the health care industry realizes they can charge whatever they want, and the government will tax people to pay the bill.
      - michaeldhopkins 15y ago
        Price controls and price control problems follow. This is known.
        sp332 15y ago
        Exactly, which means that market forces are pretty much destroyed. When the government decides by fiat how much things should cost, there's no incentive to make a better product. It's just a race to the bottom. Not to mention regulatory capture etc.
        peteretep 15y ago
        Market forces can't be /destroyed/. Market forces just /are/. These forces don't always lead to market efficiency (which is called market failure), which I think is what you're thinking of. Most often, market intervention leads to unexpected consequences, as people have a great deal of trouble predicting the effects of market forces. The government deciding by fiat how much something should cost is more likely to lead to removal of consumer surplus, rather than a race to the bottom, if the government maintains competition amongst its suppliers. If you know you're competing on product quality at a certain price point - rather than on price - you'll likely be motivated to produce the best product possible at a price point that maintains normal profit. That's what I think anyway, but as I've already said, it's remarkably difficult to predict how market forces will play out. I do note, however, that most of the developed world gets significantly better health outcomes for significantly less outlay than the US. This suggests massive market failure in the US health market. This may be because while the US market is in theory a free market, in practice, it's anything but - it's an oligopoly with absolutely massive barriers to entry and no end of government interference. Hopefully something for you to consider!
        nl 15y ago
        That's not the case though. Universal healthcare is a safety-net, to make sure everyone gets a basic standard of care. It doesn't preclude premium offering which include "a better product". Here (Australia) we have a public health system, but you can also buy private health insurance which gets you into things like private hospitals (nicer rooms, etc).
        michaeldhopkins 15y ago
        I didn't really say that. The hard problem with price controls is difficulty producing the right amounts of goods to meet demands because of regulation needed to mandate supply of less profitable goods. It becomes very complex when so many different products are involved, and because of insufficient resources it's not possible mandate overproduction of every good.
        wisty 15y ago
        Yes, there are problems with socialized medicine. But there's problems with US style medicine too. Theorists can argue forever about this, but it's pretty empirically clear that the US system sucks, and costs a lot of money. The other systems suck less, and cost less. Which would you prefer?
        michaeldhopkins 15y ago
        I didn't say anything about US medicine, especially whether it has price problems and whether it could or does have price control problems. I only gave a specific answer to what happens when there is inelastic demand because of a government that can also regulate the suppliers. I see how "this is known" might be taken the wrong way, but all I meant by it was that the OP didn't need to wonder...it's found in any standard microecon textbook. I would like to think we could talk about cause and effect in isolation here without making everything a grand political statement.
        Symmetry 15y ago
        Unfortunatley we already have enough price control to be feeling the bite of price control problems. For instance, the ratio of what a general practitioner can charge in fees to what a surgical specialist can charge is set by the government. Its also set by a formula cooked up by a sociologist using the labor theory of value, for heaven's sake. And we do have production quotas for prescription drugs, issued by the FDA. Drug companies can set whatever prices they want but they can't change their production in response to market prices - producing more of drugs that have shown an unexpected demands. In many ways the current US healthcare system is the worst of both worlds.
  - _delirium 15y ago
    Well yes, and "free over-the-air TV" isn't free either; it costs quite a bit of money to produce and broadcast. It's free in the sense of no payment at the point of receipt. Same with, say, a "free" library card or county park.
    - sp332 15y ago
      Well, broadcast TV is free to the recipient. But most people getting "free" healthcare are also paying for it.
      - nkassis 15y ago
        semantics everyone knows what they mean. Call it public health system if you want. The idea is you are not charged per visit or per service rendered. And a vast amount of people in countries with public health systems aren't paying a cent considering they don't pay taxes for various reasons. You can't get healthcare like this in the US you pay or get nothing.
        detst 15y ago
        > [...] in the US you pay or get nothing. Things certainly aren't perfect, but it irks me when everyone thinks they are an expert in US affairs. It may not be universal but there absolutely is free (or very cheap) health care available in the US. There are all kinds of programs for the old, young and poor. Otherwise, just about any job will offer health care. Sure, there are people that fall through the cracks and that's a huge problem.
        amcintyre 15y ago
        It may not be universal but there absolutely is free (or very cheap) health care available in the US. Where might I find this free/very cheap health care?
        detst 15y ago
        Walk into a hospital and demonstrate that you have no money, free clinics, teaching hospitals, Medicaid, finding a kind-hearted doctor that will work for free or for whatever you can afford. Maybe of more concern for people on HN is starting a business and having some minor medical history that is deemed a pre-existing condition and thus being rejected for insurance. In that case, go to http://www.healthcare.gov/ http://www.healthcare.gov/ [1] and you'll find a very reasonably priced plan. Depending on the state, you can find premiums well under $200/month, $20 doctor visits, $10 prescriptions with the deductible waived for most services. That's nothing for most people with the earning-power of the average HN visitor. EDIT: [1]: Just looked for Michigan and aged 25-29, with a pre-existing condition, premiums are $127.44/month.
- davidw 15y ago
  That was me:-) I was amazed at how far and wide that tweet was spread. https://twitter.com/#!/davidnwelton/status/99849223884906496 https://twitter.com/#!/davidnwelton/status/99849223884906496
yardie 15y ago
And Saudi Arabia

peteretep 15y ago

Unrelated: when the US had its difficult moment recently, someone on my Twitter feed pointed out that "Now all the AAA countries have free universal health care!"

sp332 15y ago
Universal healthcare isn't free. Maybe it's not a bad deal, but it costs a lot of money.
- adaml_623 15y ago
  It's free for the people who couldn't afford it otherwise. Which is a great deal that many of us who pay for it are happy to contribute to.
  - sp332 15y ago
    That's fine, but I'm worried what would happen when the health care industry realizes they can charge whatever they want, and the government will tax people to pay the bill.
    - michaeldhopkins 15y ago
      Price controls and price control problems follow. This is known.
      - sp332 15y ago
        Exactly, which means that market forces are pretty much destroyed. When the government decides by fiat how much things should cost, there's no incentive to make a better product. It's just a race to the bottom. Not to mention regulatory capture etc.
        peteretep 15y ago
        Market forces can't be /destroyed/. Market forces just /are/. These forces don't always lead to market efficiency (which is called market failure), which I think is what you're thinking of. Most often, market intervention leads to unexpected consequences, as people have a great deal of trouble predicting the effects of market forces. The government deciding by fiat how much something should cost is more likely to lead to removal of consumer surplus, rather than a race to the bottom, if the government maintains competition amongst its suppliers. If you know you're competing on product quality at a certain price point - rather than on price - you'll likely be motivated to produce the best product possible at a price point that maintains normal profit. That's what I think anyway, but as I've already said, it's remarkably difficult to predict how market forces will play out. I do note, however, that most of the developed world gets significantly better health outcomes for significantly less outlay than the US. This suggests massive market failure in the US health market. This may be because while the US market is in theory a free market, in practice, it's anything but - it's an oligopoly with absolutely massive barriers to entry and no end of government interference. Hopefully something for you to consider!
        nl 15y ago
        That's not the case though. Universal healthcare is a safety-net, to make sure everyone gets a basic standard of care. It doesn't preclude premium offering which include "a better product". Here (Australia) we have a public health system, but you can also buy private health insurance which gets you into things like private hospitals (nicer rooms, etc).
        michaeldhopkins 15y ago
        I didn't really say that. The hard problem with price controls is difficulty producing the right amounts of goods to meet demands because of regulation needed to mandate supply of less profitable goods. It becomes very complex when so many different products are involved, and because of insufficient resources it's not possible mandate overproduction of every good.
      - wisty 15y ago
        Yes, there are problems with socialized medicine. But there's problems with US style medicine too. Theorists can argue forever about this, but it's pretty empirically clear that the US system sucks, and costs a lot of money. The other systems suck less, and cost less. Which would you prefer?
        michaeldhopkins 15y ago
        I didn't say anything about US medicine, especially whether it has price problems and whether it could or does have price control problems. I only gave a specific answer to what happens when there is inelastic demand because of a government that can also regulate the suppliers. I see how "this is known" might be taken the wrong way, but all I meant by it was that the OP didn't need to wonder...it's found in any standard microecon textbook. I would like to think we could talk about cause and effect in isolation here without making everything a grand political statement.
      - Symmetry 15y ago
        Unfortunatley we already have enough price control to be feeling the bite of price control problems. For instance, the ratio of what a general practitioner can charge in fees to what a surgical specialist can charge is set by the government. Its also set by a formula cooked up by a sociologist using the labor theory of value, for heaven's sake. And we do have production quotas for prescription drugs, issued by the FDA. Drug companies can set whatever prices they want but they can't change their production in response to market prices - producing more of drugs that have shown an unexpected demands. In many ways the current US healthcare system is the worst of both worlds.
- _delirium 15y ago
  Well yes, and "free over-the-air TV" isn't free either; it costs quite a bit of money to produce and broadcast. It's free in the sense of no payment at the point of receipt. Same with, say, a "free" library card or county park.
  - sp332 15y ago
    Well, broadcast TV is free to the recipient. But most people getting "free" healthcare are also paying for it.
    - nkassis 15y ago
      semantics everyone knows what they mean. Call it public health system if you want. The idea is you are not charged per visit or per service rendered. And a vast amount of people in countries with public health systems aren't paying a cent considering they don't pay taxes for various reasons. You can't get healthcare like this in the US you pay or get nothing.
      - detst 15y ago
        > [...] in the US you pay or get nothing. Things certainly aren't perfect, but it irks me when everyone thinks they are an expert in US affairs. It may not be universal but there absolutely is free (or very cheap) health care available in the US. There are all kinds of programs for the old, young and poor. Otherwise, just about any job will offer health care. Sure, there are people that fall through the cracks and that's a huge problem.
        amcintyre 15y ago
        It may not be universal but there absolutely is free (or very cheap) health care available in the US. Where might I find this free/very cheap health care?
        detst 15y ago
        Walk into a hospital and demonstrate that you have no money, free clinics, teaching hospitals, Medicaid, finding a kind-hearted doctor that will work for free or for whatever you can afford. Maybe of more concern for people on HN is starting a business and having some minor medical history that is deemed a pre-existing condition and thus being rejected for insurance. In that case, go to http://www.healthcare.gov/ http://www.healthcare.gov/ [1] and you'll find a very reasonably priced plan. Depending on the state, you can find premiums well under $200/month, $20 doctor visits, $10 prescriptions with the deductible waived for most services. That's nothing for most people with the earning-power of the average HN visitor. EDIT: [1]: Just looked for Michigan and aged 25-29, with a pre-existing condition, premiums are $127.44/month.
davidw 15y ago
That was me:-) I was amazed at how far and wide that tweet was spread. https://twitter.com/#!/davidnwelton/status/99849223884906496 https://twitter.com/#!/davidnwelton/status/99849223884906496

yardie 15y ago

And Saudi Arabia