5 ms·

I found the intro a little confusing, but I think his conclusion is really strong and apt: I am not writing this piece to advocate for the protest and its part

by nkurz 5y ago

I found the intro a little confusing, but I think his conclusion is really strong and apt: I am not writing this piece to advocate for the protest and its participants. I am writing this piece to ask Canadians like me whether we want our future protests to be judged and covered by standards applied to the truckers today. I am asking us to think about what happens to the horizon of possibility for mass organizing when we throw in with the idea that actual, authentic grassroots protests are a thing of the past and the only legitimate public demonstration is one choreographed from above, its participants carefully disciplined into reading from an identical script or into silence. We should also think about the Proud Boys and Sons of Odin who have gone to the rally to radicalize its participants. The on-the-ground experience of regular folks participating will be of being called Nazis, traitors, Klansmen, bigots, etc. Not only will this place greater distance between the participants and urban Canadian society; it will make them look less unfavourably on others who are called Nazis and Klansmen. How bad could those guys really be, they will ask themselves? Were they also smeared as part of a bum rap by shills for the pharmaceutical industry? They will wonder if those folks also came to be known as these things the way they did. As a person who, because I dissented from the progressive consensus on a single issue, has been smeared as a transphobe, homophobe, pedophile, white supremacist, racist and ableist in the past year and a half, I can no longer simply accept the opinion of centre-left media on whether someone is a dangerous, bigoted member of the alt-right. I can no longer trust the government-financed Canadian Anti-Hate Network on whether someone is a dangerous hatemonger because many of my comrades and I are on their list. And not everyone is going to be like me and check those claims against the facts. Most people will just start ignoring those claims. There is a high price to pay when you decide to cry “wolf” over fascism in a political situation like our own, where the authoritarian threat is real and society-wide.

jevoten 5y ago
> I am writing this piece to ask Canadians like me whether we want our future protests to be judged and covered by standards applied to the truckers today [..] actual, authentic grassroots protests are a thing of the past and the only legitimate public demonstration is one choreographed from above, its participants carefully disciplined into reading from an identical script or into silence. Obviously this is completely wrong - the author thinks there is any kind of principled consistency in how movements are covered. Protests have always been covered selectively by the media. If journalists or media conglomerates support the cause, they prominently feature the most sympathetic parts of the protests, and downplay others. If not, they do the opposite. Had the author's views not been so in line with the establishment, he would have noticed this decades ago.
- yunohn 5y ago
  Kinda odd why this comment is so downvoted, I was under the impression this was pretty common knowledge…
- pc2g4d 5y ago
  Perhaps that is true. Or perhaps having an ideal of objectivity can increase objectivity, and abandoning such an ideal dooms us to exactly what you are describing.
- AniseAbyss 5y ago
  "Grassroots" LMAO we are not even pretending anymore that Canada is a sovereign state. Regardless of one's views on the Canadian government COVID policy it is not okay for a bunch of foreigners to come in and disrupt society with violent protests. Is Canada now another chess-piece in the great American culture war? Always have been.
  - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
    What are you referring to? Are you suggesting most of the protestors/truckers aren't Canadians?
    - 8jef 5y ago
      Of course they are Canadians. Only their narrative is imported.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > LMAO we are not even pretending anymore that Canada is a sovereign state It echoes what a Canadian working in America told me: "you get the privilege of paying 30% more and earning 30% less, and you get to vote for someone who’s not there when the real decisions happen in Washington".
- DiggyJohnson 5y ago
  That is not "obviously completely wrong" for a number of reasons. One example of how there are novel aspects to this situation is a reversal of the politics of traditional establishment versus protestors. In the recent past, protestors were usually associated with liberal progressives, and the establishment upheld conservative (usually still within the realm of "liberal", though) principles. Now we see the liberal-progressive establishment enforcing and narrating policies that concern conservatives (and many liberals - just my opinion). Additionally, the rhetoric used by the establishment is especially concerning, because the vitriol is coming from the highest levels without much effort to obfuscate.
pjc50 5y ago
So I went and looked up the radicalising incident: https://thetyee.ca/News/2020/09/23/BC-Ecosocialist-Leader-Stuart-Parker-Resigns/ https://thetyee.ca/News/2020/09/23/BC-Ecosocialist-Leader-St... ; and without re-litigating the whole JKR controversy, he states as facts some things in that quoted post which are completely contrary to the reality of the treatment of trans minors, which is itself an extremely difficult treatment to access. It's not something pushed on anyone. This is the "cancelled-to-alt-right-pipeline". Someone says a bunch of incorrect things that are harmful to a minority, is rudely corrected on social media, and decides to go hard to the other side.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing this context. It is ironic that the topic of Stuart's post was a call to stop canceling potential allies and pushing them to the alt right. >he states as facts some things in that quoted post which are completely contrary to the reality of the treatment of trans minors Coming at this with fresh eyes, He doesn't state anything as facts. He just summed up what JKRs position was and said this person is a potential trans ally. As a result, he lost his political position and was canceled for begging people to think twice about canceling someone else.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    > He just summed up what JKRs position was .. which was based on a set of wrong (and inflammatory!) claims about how trans healthcare works. > and said this person is a potential trans ally. Only in the sense that any alive person is a potential trans ally; you are not an ally simply because you claim to be, you have to actually do the work, and in JKR's case that means she would have to do a lot of work simply to undo the damage and hurt that she herself has caused to trans people. You can't say "I would be an ally to those people if only they'd stop cancelling me!", that indicates a fundamental failure to understand what an ally is.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      It seems like he said, JRK is opposed to these 3 things. If the trans community is also opposed to those 3 things, why wouldn't or couldn't they be an ally? There should be violent agreement! Further, if the community wants 100 things, and someone supports 97, and disagrees on 3, must they be an enemy? The point does indeed revolve around different definitions of what an ally is. Is it someone willing to work with you to get what you want, or get some of what you want, or is it someone who holds identical views? The topic has strong parallels to the title post. Can the green party march alongside radical communists to protest climate change?
BeefWellington 5y ago
> I am not writing this piece to advocate for the protest and its participants. I am writing this piece to ask Canadians like me whether we want our future protests to be judged and covered by standards applied to the truckers today. I am asking us to think about what happens to the horizon of possibility for mass organizing when we throw in with the idea that actual, authentic grassroots protests are a thing of the past and the only legitimate public demonstration is one choreographed from above, its participants carefully disciplined into reading from an identical script or into silence. The main objection I have to this is that yes, I think I do want any protest whose organizers' demands are essentially "we'll take over for elected MPs and collectively this new government issue edicts to provinces" reported on in this way.[1] > We should also think about the Proud Boys and Sons of Odin who have gone to the rally to radicalize its participants. The on-the-ground experience of regular folks participating will be of being called Nazis, traitors, Klansmen, bigots, etc. Not only will this place greater distance between the participants and urban Canadian society; it will make them look less unfavourably on others who are called Nazis and Klansmen. How bad could those guys really be, they will ask themselves? Were they also smeared as part of a bum rap by shills for the pharmaceutical industry? This is a weak argument for a few reasons. 1. The "regular folks" here are decidedly in the tiny minority. "Regular folks" by the percentages in Canada got vaccinated and aren't harassing people who live near government buildings / borders. Ottawa and its immediate areas across the river in Quebec house about 1.5 million people collectively, and they were able to drum up about 20k at the peak, who all disappeared on Sunday. 2. While I think it's certainly possible some people out there somewhere have thought to themselves "well I guess I am racist, even though I think I'm not, and I guess it can't be all that bad", I've yet to see anything close to that actually happening. What I have seen happen is people who weren't vocal about *beliefs they already held* are now emboldened to share it, be it because they perceive the "others" to be responsible for their poor economic status or just because it's ingrained from upbringing. 3. The notes about the Proud Boys and the Sons of Odin joining the protest are interesting, because it's the same "not all protestors" thing that happens at ANY large protest. Is the suggestion that it's only the Sons of Odin and Proud Boys members laying on air horns for hours on end in the middle of the night? 4. This sets the bar as "unless it's an all out riot you can never judge a protest by the actions of its members." I don't agree at all. There've been countless left- and right-side protests in Ottawa, and none that I know of have been like this. Consider: There has been a large March for Life protest pretty much every year since I left the city, and they do not turn violent or damage property: https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/thousands-attend-march-for-life-downtown-1.3923289 https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/thousands-attend-march-for-life-do... The reason it's getting the coverage it is is because it is deserved based on the actions of people associated with this particular cause. The concept that the coverage there is only showing the worst behaviours is hilarious to me because of course it is. That's what the news media do. It isn't a left/right divide at all, it's a "what generates attention" divide. [1]: https://canada-unity.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Combined-MOU-Dec03.pdf https://canada-unity.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Combined...

by nkurz 5y ago

jevoten 5y ago

> I am writing this piece to ask Canadians like me whether we want our future protests to be judged and covered by standards applied to the truckers today [..] actual, authentic grassroots protests are a thing of the past and the only legitimate public demonstration is one choreographed from above, its participants carefully disciplined into reading from an identical script or into silence. Obviously this is completely wrong - the author thinks there is any kind of principled consistency in how movements are covered. Protests have always been covered selectively by the media. If journalists or media conglomerates support the cause, they prominently feature the most sympathetic parts of the protests, and downplay others. If not, they do the opposite. Had the author's views not been so in line with the establishment, he would have noticed this decades ago.

yunohn 5y ago
Kinda odd why this comment is so downvoted, I was under the impression this was pretty common knowledge…
pc2g4d 5y ago
Perhaps that is true. Or perhaps having an ideal of objectivity can increase objectivity, and abandoning such an ideal dooms us to exactly what you are describing.
AniseAbyss 5y ago
"Grassroots" LMAO we are not even pretending anymore that Canada is a sovereign state. Regardless of one's views on the Canadian government COVID policy it is not okay for a bunch of foreigners to come in and disrupt society with violent protests. Is Canada now another chess-piece in the great American culture war? Always have been.
- DiggyJohnson 5y ago
  What are you referring to? Are you suggesting most of the protestors/truckers aren't Canadians?
  - 8jef 5y ago
    Of course they are Canadians. Only their narrative is imported.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > LMAO we are not even pretending anymore that Canada is a sovereign state It echoes what a Canadian working in America told me: "you get the privilege of paying 30% more and earning 30% less, and you get to vote for someone who’s not there when the real decisions happen in Washington".
DiggyJohnson 5y ago
That is not "obviously completely wrong" for a number of reasons. One example of how there are novel aspects to this situation is a reversal of the politics of traditional establishment versus protestors. In the recent past, protestors were usually associated with liberal progressives, and the establishment upheld conservative (usually still within the realm of "liberal", though) principles. Now we see the liberal-progressive establishment enforcing and narrating policies that concern conservatives (and many liberals - just my opinion). Additionally, the rhetoric used by the establishment is especially concerning, because the vitriol is coming from the highest levels without much effort to obfuscate.

pjc50 5y ago

So I went and looked up the radicalising incident: https://thetyee.ca/News/2020/09/23/BC-Ecosocialist-Leader-Stuart-Parker-Resigns/ https://thetyee.ca/News/2020/09/23/BC-Ecosocialist-Leader-St... ; and without re-litigating the whole JKR controversy, he states as facts some things in that quoted post which are completely contrary to the reality of the treatment of trans minors, which is itself an extremely difficult treatment to access. It's not something pushed on anyone. This is the "cancelled-to-alt-right-pipeline". Someone says a bunch of incorrect things that are harmful to a minority, is rudely corrected on social media, and decides to go hard to the other side.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
Thanks for sharing this context. It is ironic that the topic of Stuart's post was a call to stop canceling potential allies and pushing them to the alt right. >he states as facts some things in that quoted post which are completely contrary to the reality of the treatment of trans minors Coming at this with fresh eyes, He doesn't state anything as facts. He just summed up what JKRs position was and said this person is a potential trans ally. As a result, he lost his political position and was canceled for begging people to think twice about canceling someone else.
- pjc50 5y ago
  > He just summed up what JKRs position was .. which was based on a set of wrong (and inflammatory!) claims about how trans healthcare works. > and said this person is a potential trans ally. Only in the sense that any alive person is a potential trans ally; you are not an ally simply because you claim to be, you have to actually do the work, and in JKR's case that means she would have to do a lot of work simply to undo the damage and hurt that she herself has caused to trans people. You can't say "I would be an ally to those people if only they'd stop cancelling me!", that indicates a fundamental failure to understand what an ally is.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    It seems like he said, JRK is opposed to these 3 things. If the trans community is also opposed to those 3 things, why wouldn't or couldn't they be an ally? There should be violent agreement! Further, if the community wants 100 things, and someone supports 97, and disagrees on 3, must they be an enemy? The point does indeed revolve around different definitions of what an ally is. Is it someone willing to work with you to get what you want, or get some of what you want, or is it someone who holds identical views? The topic has strong parallels to the title post. Can the green party march alongside radical communists to protest climate change?

BeefWellington 5y ago

> I am not writing this piece to advocate for the protest and its participants. I am writing this piece to ask Canadians like me whether we want our future protests to be judged and covered by standards applied to the truckers today. I am asking us to think about what happens to the horizon of possibility for mass organizing when we throw in with the idea that actual, authentic grassroots protests are a thing of the past and the only legitimate public demonstration is one choreographed from above, its participants carefully disciplined into reading from an identical script or into silence. The main objection I have to this is that yes, I think I do want any protest whose organizers' demands are essentially "we'll take over for elected MPs and collectively this new government issue edicts to provinces" reported on in this way.[1] > We should also think about the Proud Boys and Sons of Odin who have gone to the rally to radicalize its participants. The on-the-ground experience of regular folks participating will be of being called Nazis, traitors, Klansmen, bigots, etc. Not only will this place greater distance between the participants and urban Canadian society; it will make them look less unfavourably on others who are called Nazis and Klansmen. How bad could those guys really be, they will ask themselves? Were they also smeared as part of a bum rap by shills for the pharmaceutical industry? This is a weak argument for a few reasons. 1. The "regular folks" here are decidedly in the tiny minority. "Regular folks" by the percentages in Canada got vaccinated and aren't harassing people who live near government buildings / borders. Ottawa and its immediate areas across the river in Quebec house about 1.5 million people collectively, and they were able to drum up about 20k at the peak, who all disappeared on Sunday. 2. While I think it's certainly possible some people out there somewhere have thought to themselves "well I guess I am racist, even though I think I'm not, and I guess it can't be all that bad", I've yet to see anything close to that actually happening. What I have seen happen is people who weren't vocal about *beliefs they already held* are now emboldened to share it, be it because they perceive the "others" to be responsible for their poor economic status or just because it's ingrained from upbringing. 3. The notes about the Proud Boys and the Sons of Odin joining the protest are interesting, because it's the same "not all protestors" thing that happens at ANY large protest. Is the suggestion that it's only the Sons of Odin and Proud Boys members laying on air horns for hours on end in the middle of the night? 4. This sets the bar as "unless it's an all out riot you can never judge a protest by the actions of its members." I don't agree at all. There've been countless left- and right-side protests in Ottawa, and none that I know of have been like this. Consider: There has been a large March for Life protest pretty much every year since I left the city, and they do not turn violent or damage property: https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/thousands-attend-march-for-life-downtown-1.3923289 https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/thousands-attend-march-for-life-do... The reason it's getting the coverage it is is because it is deserved based on the actions of people associated with this particular cause. The concept that the coverage there is only showing the worst behaviours is hilarious to me because of course it is. That's what the news media do. It isn't a left/right divide at all, it's a "what generates attention" divide. [1]: https://canada-unity.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Combined-MOU-Dec03.pdf https://canada-unity.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Combined...