5 ms·

> a friend of mine (who is not Native American) used to make those “dream catcher” wall hangings. > A few people told her why it was not cool. Were those peop

> a friend of mine (who is not Native American) used to make those “dream catcher” wall hangings. > A few people told her why it was not cool. Were those people Native American?

JohnBooty 5y ago
I think it's not super relevant but: my understanding is that they were of partial Native American descent. Reason why I say it's not super relevant in this particular case? As a white person, it would be ridiculous for me to attempt to speak for Native Americans or any other group. But it would be perfectly OK for me to say e.g. "hey, I think a lot of Native Americans aren't cool with white people making 'dream catchers' -- maybe look into that? Also here are some links to Native Americans talking about it?"
- hn_ta_234465 5y ago
  This line of thinking seems so bizarre to me, perhaps because I'm not from the USA. You basically say that the race of people should govern what they do or not (make a specific art) or decides the truth value of their claims (you can't say X as a white person, but a native American can). It seems like in the quest of combating racism, you just ended up in a form of racism that's just inverted the direction of the previous one.
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    Suppose you’re my coworker. I can’t really speak for you. I don’t know your opinions! You didn’t ask me to be your spokesperson. Cool? Makes sense? But, I remember that one time you said you’re allergic to nuts. Next year, somebody’s making cookies for the office. He asks what kind of cookies everybody likes. He’s thinking of making macadamia nut cookies. You’re out of the office that day. “Oh, I’m not sure what kind of cookies hn_ta_234465 likes,” I say. “But I do remember that he’s allergic to nuts.” Does that make sense? I’m not your spokesman and it would be weird/rude to put words in your mouth. But it makes 100% sense for me to refer to something you’ve already said. Simple.
    - quacked 5y ago
      So if my fiancee, who is part native, says it's okay to make and sell native-style dream catchers, I can just ignore your friends when you say it's not okay?
      - MockObject 5y ago
        This speaks to a fatal flaw with the concept of cultural appropriation. Ok, so a "white" person can't "speak for Native Americans", but a Native American can? Can any, or just certain ones? Who wins if they disagree?
        JohnBooty 5y ago
        There's no "disagreement" between Native Americans in the sense that some of them are imploring white people to capitalize on their spiritual paraphernalia, and others are telling white people not to do that, and oh jeez what do we do we can't make both sides happy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Instead, there are a sizable number of Native Americans who would prefer that white people don't capitalize on their spiritual practices. And then there are many who aren't all that invested in the matter, and simply don't care, but you're not going to disrespect or hurt or belittle them by respecting the others. So there's a pretty clear course of action, for those who are willing to give half a shit about others, but that's definitely a choice that we all have to make on an individual basis. You can choose not to care, or not care. You can also tell yourself that you do care but they're being dumb. That one gets extra cool points.
        MockObject 5y ago
        > some of them are imploring white people to capitalize on their spiritual paraphernalia There are no Native Americans making money from such activities? Looks like you do speak for them after all! You can guarantee that not a single one of them sells dreamcatchers. Are the number of Indians excoriating Westerners for appropriating yoga "sizable", or not?
        5y ago

> a friend of mine (who is not Native American) used to make those “dream catcher” wall hangings. > A few people told her why it was not cool. Were those people Native American?

JohnBooty 5y ago

I think it's not super relevant but: my understanding is that they were of partial Native American descent. Reason why I say it's not super relevant in this particular case? As a white person, it would be ridiculous for me to attempt to speak for Native Americans or any other group. But it would be perfectly OK for me to say e.g. "hey, I think a lot of Native Americans aren't cool with white people making 'dream catchers' -- maybe look into that? Also here are some links to Native Americans talking about it?"

hn_ta_234465 5y ago
This line of thinking seems so bizarre to me, perhaps because I'm not from the USA. You basically say that the race of people should govern what they do or not (make a specific art) or decides the truth value of their claims (you can't say X as a white person, but a native American can). It seems like in the quest of combating racism, you just ended up in a form of racism that's just inverted the direction of the previous one.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  Suppose you’re my coworker. I can’t really speak for you. I don’t know your opinions! You didn’t ask me to be your spokesperson. Cool? Makes sense? But, I remember that one time you said you’re allergic to nuts. Next year, somebody’s making cookies for the office. He asks what kind of cookies everybody likes. He’s thinking of making macadamia nut cookies. You’re out of the office that day. “Oh, I’m not sure what kind of cookies hn_ta_234465 likes,” I say. “But I do remember that he’s allergic to nuts.” Does that make sense? I’m not your spokesman and it would be weird/rude to put words in your mouth. But it makes 100% sense for me to refer to something you’ve already said. Simple.
  - quacked 5y ago
    So if my fiancee, who is part native, says it's okay to make and sell native-style dream catchers, I can just ignore your friends when you say it's not okay?
    - MockObject 5y ago
      This speaks to a fatal flaw with the concept of cultural appropriation. Ok, so a "white" person can't "speak for Native Americans", but a Native American can? Can any, or just certain ones? Who wins if they disagree?
      - JohnBooty 5y ago
        There's no "disagreement" between Native Americans in the sense that some of them are imploring white people to capitalize on their spiritual paraphernalia, and others are telling white people not to do that, and oh jeez what do we do we can't make both sides happy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Instead, there are a sizable number of Native Americans who would prefer that white people don't capitalize on their spiritual practices. And then there are many who aren't all that invested in the matter, and simply don't care, but you're not going to disrespect or hurt or belittle them by respecting the others. So there's a pretty clear course of action, for those who are willing to give half a shit about others, but that's definitely a choice that we all have to make on an individual basis. You can choose not to care, or not care. You can also tell yourself that you do care but they're being dumb. That one gets extra cool points.
        MockObject 5y ago
        > some of them are imploring white people to capitalize on their spiritual paraphernalia There are no Native Americans making money from such activities? Looks like you do speak for them after all! You can guarantee that not a single one of them sells dreamcatchers. Are the number of Indians excoriating Westerners for appropriating yoga "sizable", or not?
        5y ago