5 ms·

Please provide some evidence, other than your intuition, that the patent system is necessary and useful, over no patent system.

ChrisLomont 5y ago
Which countries provide more innovation, those with strong patent laws protecting inventors, or those with lax or no patent laws, allowing anyone to just copy inventions without rewarding inventors?
- errantmind 5y ago
  You tell me, bring some evidence.
  - ChrisLomont 5y ago
    Some recent papers [1], look at figures at end of paper. Figure one shows the percent of inventions in various industries that would not have been developed without patent protection, and it's 60% for pharm, >35% for chem, and significant for machinery, electrical. This chart is from 1986, so tech didn't exist as it does now. Many other charts, some much more recent, show that without patent protection a lot of current invention would not get done. [2] is an interesting one, a recent paper studying the effect WWII had on innovation by making patents secret so enemies could not learn from them. The effect is that without patents making companies publish innovations, follow-on innovation was slowed significantly. So this provides evidence that patents add innovation by letting competitors learn more quickly. [3] - patents in the UK : "We find evidence pointing to a positive association between patenting and innovative performance measured as turnover due to innovation, but not between patenting and subsequent employment growth." [4] "We find that patent approvals help startups create jobs, grow their sales, innovate, and reward their investors. Exogenous delays in the patent examination process significantly reduce firm growth, job creation, and innovation, even when a firm’s patent application is eventually approved. Our results suggest that patents act as a catalyst that sets startups on a growth path by facilitating their access to capital. " [5] "Using unique data on all first-time applications filed at the U.S. Patent Office since 2001, we find that startups that win the patent “lottery” by drawing lenient examiners have, on average, 55% higher employment growth and 80% higher sales growth five years later. Patent winners also pursue more, and higher quality, follow-on innovation. Winning a first patent boosts a startup’s subsequent growth and innovation by facilitating access to funding from VCs, banks, and public investors." There's hundreds more papers - go to google scholar and search and learn about it. Now, as to your statement, "Please provide some evidence, other than your intuition, that the patent system is necessary and useful, over no patent system. reply". Do you have any good survey papers or wide scale evidence to support that a patent system isn't necessary and useful? Anecdotes, blog posts, stories about this or that company are not solid evidence, since those all ignore the totality of evidence. [1] https://www.nber.org/papers/w25383 https://www.nber.org/papers/w25383 [2] https://www.nber.org/digest/jul19/wwii-policy-kept-patents-secret-slowed-innovation https://www.nber.org/digest/jul19/wwii-policy-kept-patents-s... [3] https://www.nber.org/papers/w19089 https://www.nber.org/papers/w19089 [4] https://www.nber.org/papers/w21959 https://www.nber.org/papers/w21959 [5] https://www.nber.org/papers/w23268 https://www.nber.org/papers/w23268
    - errantmind 5y ago
      Thank you for looking into this. I'm sure most people wouldn't. I'll start at the end where you say "Do you have any good survey papers or wide scale evidence to support that a patent system isn't necessary and useful". I argue the burden of evidence is not on me to prove that something other people are advocating for is useful, it is on them.. in the same way that the burden of proof is on a person claiming something, and not on the person not claiming something. That said, several of the papers you cite don't show that the patent system itself is better than no patent system. They are all conditioned on there already being a patent system. So, they are in the form of "if you have a patent system, than 'x' situation/circumstance is better than 'y'. For example, your #2 example says that when patents are secret, innovation drops compared to when they are open. What about when there are no patents at all? Secret is not even close to the same as 'no patents', because in a 'secret' patent system you have no idea if you are infringing on someone's patents and will be subsequently sued out of existence. Similarly, in your #4 and #5 examples, that can be explained by how necessary having a patent is to securing yourself against lawsuits, but these fears wouldn't be relevant in a system without patents. Sadly, IP, including patents, are forced on most countries by way of international trade agreements so it is hard to find real examples to discuss. As for counter-literature, there is a significant amount as well, so this will likely end like every other 'sourced' internet debate. One of my favorite references is 'The Case Against Patents' [1] . Perhaps you will find it interesting. [1] https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/wp/2012/2012-035.pdf https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/wp/2012/2012-035.p...
      - ChrisLomont 5y ago
        >I argue the burden of evidence is not on me to prove that something other people are advocating for is useful, it is on them.. When you make the first claim in a discussion, and your claim is counter to both economic theory (patents help) and the common arguments for a thing (patents help by adding disclosure and protecting small inventors), the burden on you is to prove why the economic theory or common understanding is wrong. >several of the papers you cite don't show that the patent system itself is better than no patent system All showed that the patent system provides benefits. I'm already familiar with the St. Louis Fed paper. It's from 2012, and their opening sentence "The case against patents can be summarized briefly: there is no empirical evidence that they serve to increase innovation and productivity, unless the latter is identified with the number of patents awarded – which, as evidence shows, has no correlation with measured productivity." is directly refuted by the evidence I posted in papers from, respectively, 2018 (references your paper), 2019 (revised 2022), 2013, 2016 (directly addresses your paper, starting on page 1, again on page 5 - provides clear evidence that your paper has been superseded in the literature), and 2017. So, 5 more recent papers against your favorite one? I think I'll choose the more recent work, especially since a few cite your work and provide direct and irrefutable evidence that there are benefits. Most interestingly, if you read the Levine & Boldrin paper carefully, they fill it with anecdotes, but nearly zero actual broad data, since the broad data do not support their story. The strongest citations in their paper are back to their own papers, which, if you read those, are similarly anecdote based. The proper way to do evidence is to take all evidence, not just the pieces and anecdotes one likes, and then analyze. Their paper simply doesn't do this. It's a collection of the stories they like, incredibly many, with extremely little other evidence, or new datasets, or new analysis, to make their case. For example, my line [3] above shows exactly how to do research: they list the datasets they used, which are all known data for the respective question. They explain their methodology for analysis. They show the numerical outcomes. They explain the relevance. There is not one anecdote in their paper. Now count how many anecdotes your paper makes to state their case (dozens? it's truly astounding). You're welcome to show me where in their paper they provide analysis for such large scale, all encompassing data. It's well known in the literature this paper does not do so - it's a collection of anecdotes with a popular title. It doesn't prove the case it claims to by a long shot. >One of my favorite references The thing about favorite references is you need to follow up on later work, otherwise your favorite reference may well be invalidated by later work when you decide to pull it out. I generally prefer more recent research, especially when it's numerous and they cite and address older research in question, to understand a topic.

ChrisLomont 5y ago

Which countries provide more innovation, those with strong patent laws protecting inventors, or those with lax or no patent laws, allowing anyone to just copy inventions without rewarding inventors?

errantmind 5y ago
You tell me, bring some evidence.
- ChrisLomont 5y ago
  Some recent papers [1], look at figures at end of paper. Figure one shows the percent of inventions in various industries that would not have been developed without patent protection, and it's 60% for pharm, >35% for chem, and significant for machinery, electrical. This chart is from 1986, so tech didn't exist as it does now. Many other charts, some much more recent, show that without patent protection a lot of current invention would not get done. [2] is an interesting one, a recent paper studying the effect WWII had on innovation by making patents secret so enemies could not learn from them. The effect is that without patents making companies publish innovations, follow-on innovation was slowed significantly. So this provides evidence that patents add innovation by letting competitors learn more quickly. [3] - patents in the UK : "We find evidence pointing to a positive association between patenting and innovative performance measured as turnover due to innovation, but not between patenting and subsequent employment growth." [4] "We find that patent approvals help startups create jobs, grow their sales, innovate, and reward their investors. Exogenous delays in the patent examination process significantly reduce firm growth, job creation, and innovation, even when a firm’s patent application is eventually approved. Our results suggest that patents act as a catalyst that sets startups on a growth path by facilitating their access to capital. " [5] "Using unique data on all first-time applications filed at the U.S. Patent Office since 2001, we find that startups that win the patent “lottery” by drawing lenient examiners have, on average, 55% higher employment growth and 80% higher sales growth five years later. Patent winners also pursue more, and higher quality, follow-on innovation. Winning a first patent boosts a startup’s subsequent growth and innovation by facilitating access to funding from VCs, banks, and public investors." There's hundreds more papers - go to google scholar and search and learn about it. Now, as to your statement, "Please provide some evidence, other than your intuition, that the patent system is necessary and useful, over no patent system. reply". Do you have any good survey papers or wide scale evidence to support that a patent system isn't necessary and useful? Anecdotes, blog posts, stories about this or that company are not solid evidence, since those all ignore the totality of evidence. [1] https://www.nber.org/papers/w25383 https://www.nber.org/papers/w25383 [2] https://www.nber.org/digest/jul19/wwii-policy-kept-patents-secret-slowed-innovation https://www.nber.org/digest/jul19/wwii-policy-kept-patents-s... [3] https://www.nber.org/papers/w19089 https://www.nber.org/papers/w19089 [4] https://www.nber.org/papers/w21959 https://www.nber.org/papers/w21959 [5] https://www.nber.org/papers/w23268 https://www.nber.org/papers/w23268
  - errantmind 5y ago
    Thank you for looking into this. I'm sure most people wouldn't. I'll start at the end where you say "Do you have any good survey papers or wide scale evidence to support that a patent system isn't necessary and useful". I argue the burden of evidence is not on me to prove that something other people are advocating for is useful, it is on them.. in the same way that the burden of proof is on a person claiming something, and not on the person not claiming something. That said, several of the papers you cite don't show that the patent system itself is better than no patent system. They are all conditioned on there already being a patent system. So, they are in the form of "if you have a patent system, than 'x' situation/circumstance is better than 'y'. For example, your #2 example says that when patents are secret, innovation drops compared to when they are open. What about when there are no patents at all? Secret is not even close to the same as 'no patents', because in a 'secret' patent system you have no idea if you are infringing on someone's patents and will be subsequently sued out of existence. Similarly, in your #4 and #5 examples, that can be explained by how necessary having a patent is to securing yourself against lawsuits, but these fears wouldn't be relevant in a system without patents. Sadly, IP, including patents, are forced on most countries by way of international trade agreements so it is hard to find real examples to discuss. As for counter-literature, there is a significant amount as well, so this will likely end like every other 'sourced' internet debate. One of my favorite references is 'The Case Against Patents' [1] . Perhaps you will find it interesting. [1] https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/wp/2012/2012-035.pdf https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/wp/2012/2012-035.p...
    - ChrisLomont 5y ago
      >I argue the burden of evidence is not on me to prove that something other people are advocating for is useful, it is on them.. When you make the first claim in a discussion, and your claim is counter to both economic theory (patents help) and the common arguments for a thing (patents help by adding disclosure and protecting small inventors), the burden on you is to prove why the economic theory or common understanding is wrong. >several of the papers you cite don't show that the patent system itself is better than no patent system All showed that the patent system provides benefits. I'm already familiar with the St. Louis Fed paper. It's from 2012, and their opening sentence "The case against patents can be summarized briefly: there is no empirical evidence that they serve to increase innovation and productivity, unless the latter is identified with the number of patents awarded – which, as evidence shows, has no correlation with measured productivity." is directly refuted by the evidence I posted in papers from, respectively, 2018 (references your paper), 2019 (revised 2022), 2013, 2016 (directly addresses your paper, starting on page 1, again on page 5 - provides clear evidence that your paper has been superseded in the literature), and 2017. So, 5 more recent papers against your favorite one? I think I'll choose the more recent work, especially since a few cite your work and provide direct and irrefutable evidence that there are benefits. Most interestingly, if you read the Levine & Boldrin paper carefully, they fill it with anecdotes, but nearly zero actual broad data, since the broad data do not support their story. The strongest citations in their paper are back to their own papers, which, if you read those, are similarly anecdote based. The proper way to do evidence is to take all evidence, not just the pieces and anecdotes one likes, and then analyze. Their paper simply doesn't do this. It's a collection of the stories they like, incredibly many, with extremely little other evidence, or new datasets, or new analysis, to make their case. For example, my line [3] above shows exactly how to do research: they list the datasets they used, which are all known data for the respective question. They explain their methodology for analysis. They show the numerical outcomes. They explain the relevance. There is not one anecdote in their paper. Now count how many anecdotes your paper makes to state their case (dozens? it's truly astounding). You're welcome to show me where in their paper they provide analysis for such large scale, all encompassing data. It's well known in the literature this paper does not do so - it's a collection of anecdotes with a popular title. It doesn't prove the case it claims to by a long shot. >One of my favorite references The thing about favorite references is you need to follow up on later work, otherwise your favorite reference may well be invalidated by later work when you decide to pull it out. I generally prefer more recent research, especially when it's numerous and they cite and address older research in question, to understand a topic.