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Good question. There are tools and procedures that can be used to maintain anonymity within the blockchain. For instance, tornado cash is a popular dapp used to

by tcgv 5y ago

Good question. There are tools and procedures that can be used to maintain anonymity within the blockchain. For instance, tornado cash is a popular dapp used to break the on-chain link between source and destination addresses of a transaction, so you could fund a spending address and make payments with it. The companies receiving money (stablecoins) would maintain off-chain data of your purchase (e.g. product, quantity, your contact info and delivery address) not available publicly.

woodruffw 5y ago
The UX of paying a third-party broker to opt into a semblance of privacy isn't particularly great. It's amusing (to me) how the cryptocurrency community has managed to convince its members to accept ridiculous amounts of commoditization and middlemen in exchange for anonymity properties that are strictly worse than cash, and arguably worse than payment cards.
- tcgv 5y ago
  What do you mean by third party broker? Tornado Cash is a decentralized protocol based on zero knowledge proofs. Its smart contracts are immutable, have no admins. Besides that, let us not forget that the Mastercard/Visa middlemen charge us large fees for using their services and knows everthing about our purchase habits. (unless you're living a cash based life, but that would make you an exception)
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    I don't know about Tornado Cash specifically, but every cryptocurrency tumbler that I'm familiar with takes a cut of the pork, on top of any transaction fees. This community discussion[1] makes it sound expensive. > Besides that, let us not forget that the Mastercard/Visa middlemen charge us large fees for using their services and knows everthing about our purchase habits. This is a common refrain, but it isn't quite accurate: the payment card networks charge merchants to use their services. And sure, they know what you buy. But my Aunt Susie doesn't, nor does the next person who I pay using my payment card. Privacy as a concept is described by the security or threat model one is trying to conform to; cash and payment cards both protect me from unrelated prying eyes. Cryptocurrencies can also protect me from prying eyes, but they charge me for the privilege. By default, both my Aunt Susie and my neighborhood restaurant can see that I've been unfaithful and tried a new place for dinner. [1]: https://torn.community/t/fee-how-much-does-it-cost-to-use/68 https://torn.community/t/fee-how-much-does-it-cost-to-use/68
    - seibelj 5y ago
      Cash is dying and all credit card payments, bank transfers, Venmo / PayPal, literally everything is sucked up by data miners and is easily available to the government. You are arguing against a new system by comparing it to an irretrievably broken privacy financial system. Privacy is difficult on the blockchain but not impossible. The tools continue to get better. I anticipate the privacy tools in the blockchain world will improve faster than any semblance or hope of privacy in the traditional financial world.
      - woodruffw 5y ago
        Again: the privacy/threat model is what matters. I do not operate under the delusion that I will stop my bank or payment card provider from seeing my transactions, or that my government can't obtain a lawful order to inspect the details of my finances. My interest is in protecting my privacy from people who are not in those domains: my local bodega owner, a bored Internet denizen who decides that They Just Don't Like Me, a snooping relative. I do not want to live in a world where those people, by default, get to see and evaluate my financial behavior. That, so far, is the only world that immutable public ledgers currently offer me. Thus far, privacy in the blockchain space seems to have become more expensive, not "better" in either the statistical or colloquial sense of the word. I'll believe it when I see it. In the mean time, the dollars I use to buy my morning coffee are about as anonymous as they were yesterday, last week, and last year.

by tcgv 5y ago

woodruffw 5y ago

The UX of paying a third-party broker to opt into a semblance of privacy isn't particularly great. It's amusing (to me) how the cryptocurrency community has managed to convince its members to accept ridiculous amounts of commoditization and middlemen in exchange for anonymity properties that are strictly worse than cash, and arguably worse than payment cards.

tcgv 5y ago
What do you mean by third party broker? Tornado Cash is a decentralized protocol based on zero knowledge proofs. Its smart contracts are immutable, have no admins. Besides that, let us not forget that the Mastercard/Visa middlemen charge us large fees for using their services and knows everthing about our purchase habits. (unless you're living a cash based life, but that would make you an exception)
- woodruffw 5y ago
  I don't know about Tornado Cash specifically, but every cryptocurrency tumbler that I'm familiar with takes a cut of the pork, on top of any transaction fees. This community discussion[1] makes it sound expensive. > Besides that, let us not forget that the Mastercard/Visa middlemen charge us large fees for using their services and knows everthing about our purchase habits. This is a common refrain, but it isn't quite accurate: the payment card networks charge merchants to use their services. And sure, they know what you buy. But my Aunt Susie doesn't, nor does the next person who I pay using my payment card. Privacy as a concept is described by the security or threat model one is trying to conform to; cash and payment cards both protect me from unrelated prying eyes. Cryptocurrencies can also protect me from prying eyes, but they charge me for the privilege. By default, both my Aunt Susie and my neighborhood restaurant can see that I've been unfaithful and tried a new place for dinner. [1]: https://torn.community/t/fee-how-much-does-it-cost-to-use/68 https://torn.community/t/fee-how-much-does-it-cost-to-use/68
  - seibelj 5y ago
    Cash is dying and all credit card payments, bank transfers, Venmo / PayPal, literally everything is sucked up by data miners and is easily available to the government. You are arguing against a new system by comparing it to an irretrievably broken privacy financial system. Privacy is difficult on the blockchain but not impossible. The tools continue to get better. I anticipate the privacy tools in the blockchain world will improve faster than any semblance or hope of privacy in the traditional financial world.
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      Again: the privacy/threat model is what matters. I do not operate under the delusion that I will stop my bank or payment card provider from seeing my transactions, or that my government can't obtain a lawful order to inspect the details of my finances. My interest is in protecting my privacy from people who are not in those domains: my local bodega owner, a bored Internet denizen who decides that They Just Don't Like Me, a snooping relative. I do not want to live in a world where those people, by default, get to see and evaluate my financial behavior. That, so far, is the only world that immutable public ledgers currently offer me. Thus far, privacy in the blockchain space seems to have become more expensive, not "better" in either the statistical or colloquial sense of the word. I'll believe it when I see it. In the mean time, the dollars I use to buy my morning coffee are about as anonymous as they were yesterday, last week, and last year.