4 ms·

I think the US has a particular problem here -- lots of bad traffic laws, and lots of bad drivers. IIRC road accident rates are relatively high in the US (some

I think the US has a particular problem here -- lots of bad traffic laws, and lots of bad drivers. IIRC road accident rates are relatively high in the US (some other countries are as high or higher, but not many) (edit to add: I guess the US is only high compared to most of Europe, Canada, Australia, NZ and parts of Asia. Which is a big fraction of the world, but not the whole world by any means.) I wonder whether other countries might fare better? Although the regulations will be really fragmented, and few countries can come close to the US as a market for new cars.

scoofy 5y ago
I really, really care about traffic and transit alternatives. The short answer is yes, the US has significantly higher death rates than europe (at least double last i checked), however, i think it's difficult to place that on their "driving behavior." I would speculate that much of it has to do with post-automobile city development. Having been on the road in many countries in europe, i can assure you that i've seen wildly unsafe driving in places like the UK and Italy, in contrast to germany/sweden/netherlands where i saw very safe driving. I presume the drastically lower fatality rates have much more to do with the road-widths and awkward intersections that prevent speed. I would need a ton of data to accept that "culture" is to blame for road deaths in a country, given the fact that most people treat driving as a background activity, while they are listening to music/podcasts/news/etc. I presume the vast majority of safety is done automatically by removing unsafe road designs that favor throughput, speed, and traffic reduction over forced safe usage of vehicles.
- iainmerrick 5y ago
  This is just anecdata, but I’ve spent time in the UK and in several US states, and it seems to me that very bad driving is a good bit more common in the US. There are aggressive drivers all over, at probably similar rates, but I feel like weaving across lanes, talking on phones while driving, etc is much more of a US thing. Also drunk driving, at least in certain states. I guess I attribute this to a) low standards in driving exams, b) poorly designed laws (eg turning right on red), c) lax law enforcement and compliance (eg accepting drunk driving), d) misdirected law enforcement (eg aimed at maximising fines through entrapment, rather than actually improving safety). I don’t know to what extent I’m right about any of those, though. So, I do think there’s a qualitative difference between the US and UK and “culture” is part of it (vs purely road layouts). But I definitely agree that other countries do it even better -- we should look to them for lessons, and look for ways to diversify transport beyond cars. Edit to add: to put a bit of colo(u)r on this: often in the UK, I find driving stressful because the lanes are so narrow, both on highways and in country roads. Then in eg Texas, you usually get lovely wide lanes, so driving should feel a lot safer; and I do feel like my own driving is easier, but it feels more dangerous overall because there are so many awful drivers around me! I don’t believe it’s a speed thing (plenty of people barrel down narrow UK roads at high speeds), it’s a driver attentiveness thing. Does that fit with your model?
  - scoofy 5y ago
    Here, you're conflating "bad driving" with "dangerous driving." The idea that "bad drivers" are the ones causing collisions, and that they can be corrected is not correct. I agree that bad driving is bad. I agree that bad driving will lead to collisions, but it doesn't follow necessarily that "bad drivers" are the reason that there are more injury and deaths. My contention is that, in general, we have a vehicle collision casino, and American roads just have better odds at creating collisions. The most dangerous roads aren't the ones with the highest speeds: https://uk.motor1.com/news/415257/most-dangerous-road-types-in-uk/ https://uk.motor1.com/news/415257/most-dangerous-road-types-... The most dangerous roads are the ones where people aren't predictable. Every time you pass hidden driveway, every time someone is crossing on-coming traffic, every time someone changes lanes, every time someone crosses a crosswalk, society rolls the dice, and there is some level of randomness of uncertainty could cause a collision. The more you roll those dice, and the higher speeds involved, the more injuries and deaths you'll cause. It will happen even if all the drivers are driving reasonably. This is why controlled-access highways are surprisingly safe despite their high speeds. Road design is everything in this model. "Stroad" type roads, that feature people regularly entering and crossing the road, and random, and generally unpredictable intervals are notorious for their dangers. Semi-rural roads, with regular blind driveways, and little-to-no room for error narrowness, and the other type of extremely dangerous road, because the speed and narrowness lead to the same high levels of injury and death. Both of these types of road are not dangerous because of bad driving, they are inherently dangerous, but, i agree, bad driving makes them worse. I contend that the design, however, is integral to the danger of the road. This is the only reason you can have roads, like interstate highways, with the most deadly conditions (extreme speeds, large speed deltas during traffic, near-constant rule breaking) and yet the roads are some of the least dangerous that we have.

scoofy 5y ago

I really, really care about traffic and transit alternatives. The short answer is yes, the US has significantly higher death rates than europe (at least double last i checked), however, i think it's difficult to place that on their "driving behavior." I would speculate that much of it has to do with post-automobile city development. Having been on the road in many countries in europe, i can assure you that i've seen wildly unsafe driving in places like the UK and Italy, in contrast to germany/sweden/netherlands where i saw very safe driving. I presume the drastically lower fatality rates have much more to do with the road-widths and awkward intersections that prevent speed. I would need a ton of data to accept that "culture" is to blame for road deaths in a country, given the fact that most people treat driving as a background activity, while they are listening to music/podcasts/news/etc. I presume the vast majority of safety is done automatically by removing unsafe road designs that favor throughput, speed, and traffic reduction over forced safe usage of vehicles.

iainmerrick 5y ago
This is just anecdata, but I’ve spent time in the UK and in several US states, and it seems to me that very bad driving is a good bit more common in the US. There are aggressive drivers all over, at probably similar rates, but I feel like weaving across lanes, talking on phones while driving, etc is much more of a US thing. Also drunk driving, at least in certain states. I guess I attribute this to a) low standards in driving exams, b) poorly designed laws (eg turning right on red), c) lax law enforcement and compliance (eg accepting drunk driving), d) misdirected law enforcement (eg aimed at maximising fines through entrapment, rather than actually improving safety). I don’t know to what extent I’m right about any of those, though. So, I do think there’s a qualitative difference between the US and UK and “culture” is part of it (vs purely road layouts). But I definitely agree that other countries do it even better -- we should look to them for lessons, and look for ways to diversify transport beyond cars. Edit to add: to put a bit of colo(u)r on this: often in the UK, I find driving stressful because the lanes are so narrow, both on highways and in country roads. Then in eg Texas, you usually get lovely wide lanes, so driving should feel a lot safer; and I do feel like my own driving is easier, but it feels more dangerous overall because there are so many awful drivers around me! I don’t believe it’s a speed thing (plenty of people barrel down narrow UK roads at high speeds), it’s a driver attentiveness thing. Does that fit with your model?
- scoofy 5y ago
  Here, you're conflating "bad driving" with "dangerous driving." The idea that "bad drivers" are the ones causing collisions, and that they can be corrected is not correct. I agree that bad driving is bad. I agree that bad driving will lead to collisions, but it doesn't follow necessarily that "bad drivers" are the reason that there are more injury and deaths. My contention is that, in general, we have a vehicle collision casino, and American roads just have better odds at creating collisions. The most dangerous roads aren't the ones with the highest speeds: https://uk.motor1.com/news/415257/most-dangerous-road-types-in-uk/ https://uk.motor1.com/news/415257/most-dangerous-road-types-... The most dangerous roads are the ones where people aren't predictable. Every time you pass hidden driveway, every time someone is crossing on-coming traffic, every time someone changes lanes, every time someone crosses a crosswalk, society rolls the dice, and there is some level of randomness of uncertainty could cause a collision. The more you roll those dice, and the higher speeds involved, the more injuries and deaths you'll cause. It will happen even if all the drivers are driving reasonably. This is why controlled-access highways are surprisingly safe despite their high speeds. Road design is everything in this model. "Stroad" type roads, that feature people regularly entering and crossing the road, and random, and generally unpredictable intervals are notorious for their dangers. Semi-rural roads, with regular blind driveways, and little-to-no room for error narrowness, and the other type of extremely dangerous road, because the speed and narrowness lead to the same high levels of injury and death. Both of these types of road are not dangerous because of bad driving, they are inherently dangerous, but, i agree, bad driving makes them worse. I contend that the design, however, is integral to the danger of the road. This is the only reason you can have roads, like interstate highways, with the most deadly conditions (extreme speeds, large speed deltas during traffic, near-constant rule breaking) and yet the roads are some of the least dangerous that we have.