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First of all, just to make sure we're on the same page about maybe one single thing, I don't think anybody thinks the subject of the linked article is cultural

First of all, just to make sure we're on the same page about maybe one single thing, I don't think anybody thinks the subject of the linked article is cultural appropriation. I sure don't. Ultimately everything is somewhat of consensus in society, right? I mean, even near-universal truths like "murder is generally bad" or "helping your neighbors is good" are just sort of things most societies kind of agree on. Sometimes those consensuses (consensi?) change over time. Marijuana was legal for centuries, and then it wasn't, and now it kind of is again. Sometimes the consensus is crap. In a lot of places there used to be a societal consensus that marrying your 13 year old cousin, or stoning religious heretics to death was cool. If you've really done the work, and really explored why the groups affected by cultural appropriation think it's kind of a shitty thing to do, and you really just think they're just being crybabies or liars, and you're making an informed decision to disagree then, hey, cool. Might not agree with you but if everybody put that much thought into things the world would be a better place. how should that disagreement be settled When it comes to an issue like this, maybe weigh the cost of giving a care about it vs. the cost of not giving a care about it. Example: suppose I like to use slur XYZ because it's funny to me, and I think humor is a great way to bridge the gaps between people, and it would be better if we all decided to simply not let words hurt us. (I actually do feel that way!) But a lot of people from group ABC feel like it's pretty crappy for me to use XYZ. I could just simply think they're being oversensitive, and keep saying XYZ but like... is using XYZ really that important to me? It's pretty easy for me to stop using a word. That's a pretty small cost. If it might do some good, or at least make somebody else's day better, fuck it. I'm generally happy to pay that small cost.

zepto 5y ago
> But a lot of people from group ABC feel like it's pretty crappy for me to use XYZ. There is no meaningful comparison between the use of racial slurs and cultural appropriation. It’s not even a straw man. They just aren’t analogous.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  I mean, yes, they are different. One is usually explicitly meant to denigrate another group; another is usually not meant to denigrate another group. In that sense, very different. In another key way they’re absolutely similar: they are modes of expression that (in the eyes of some) harm other groups or (in the eyes of others) are not a big deal. And there are an awful lot of grey areas and nobody agrees on the definitions.
  - zepto 5y ago
    You’ve simply repeated the contradiction. We know that slurs are meant to denigrate. We not only don’t know that appropriation is intended to do harm. For any given claim of appropriation, we don’t even know that it does harm, nor that members of the group perceive it that way in general. There really is no comparison at all, and it seems like your argument is that they are similar in that people disagree about them, which is not a meaningful point.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
JohnBooty 5y ago
Or to give maybe a more direct example: a friend of mine (who is not Native American) used to make those “dream catcher” wall hangings. Obviously she meant no harm and saw it as a tribute; a sign of appreciation. A few people told her why it was not cool. She didn’t really understand/agree. But it’s also like: did she really need to make dream catchers? So, she relented, and just made different crafts. Moral being: she disagreed with the “consensus”, but still recognized that hey - it really did amount to to stepping on another groups’ toes, at least in their eyes, so why not just stop doing it? She wasn’t shamed, or canceled, or throw in jail. She just acted in a way she felt was for the common good. Didn’t cost her anything.
- anon7725 5y ago
  > a friend of mine (who is not Native American) used to make those “dream catcher” wall hangings. > A few people told her why it was not cool. Were those people Native American?
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    I think it's not super relevant but: my understanding is that they were of partial Native American descent. Reason why I say it's not super relevant in this particular case? As a white person, it would be ridiculous for me to attempt to speak for Native Americans or any other group. But it would be perfectly OK for me to say e.g. "hey, I think a lot of Native Americans aren't cool with white people making 'dream catchers' -- maybe look into that? Also here are some links to Native Americans talking about it?"
    - hn_ta_234465 5y ago
      This line of thinking seems so bizarre to me, perhaps because I'm not from the USA. You basically say that the race of people should govern what they do or not (make a specific art) or decides the truth value of their claims (you can't say X as a white person, but a native American can). It seems like in the quest of combating racism, you just ended up in a form of racism that's just inverted the direction of the previous one.
ahartmetz 5y ago
> But a lot of people from group ABC feel like it's pretty crappy for me to use XYZ. Let's assume you had chosen a better example, such as abusing a religious symbol as the logo of a nightclub... But there is also a whole lot of mindless calling-out going on regarding cultural appropriation. Most uses of imported cultural material are not meant to denigrate or minimize and don't do so by accident. "Stealing" culture is a stupid concept. Culture cannot be stolen, only disseminated.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  But there is also a whole lot of mindless calling-out going on regarding cultural appropriation Absolutely agreed, although "some people are wrong about ___" doesn't automatically invalidate _____. I mean, what do you want to hear? Literally anything you want to do with anybody else's culture is okay and you don't even have to think about it because it's literally impossible for it to be anything but okay? There is a middle ground in which we agree that hey, some things are okay and some are better avoided.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  > "Stealing" culture is a stupid concept The wikipedia clarifies very well the concept of appropriation and how it's not a matter of theft.

zepto 5y ago

> But a lot of people from group ABC feel like it's pretty crappy for me to use XYZ. There is no meaningful comparison between the use of racial slurs and cultural appropriation. It’s not even a straw man. They just aren’t analogous.

JohnBooty 5y ago
I mean, yes, they are different. One is usually explicitly meant to denigrate another group; another is usually not meant to denigrate another group. In that sense, very different. In another key way they’re absolutely similar: they are modes of expression that (in the eyes of some) harm other groups or (in the eyes of others) are not a big deal. And there are an awful lot of grey areas and nobody agrees on the definitions.
- zepto 5y ago
  You’ve simply repeated the contradiction. We know that slurs are meant to denigrate. We not only don’t know that appropriation is intended to do harm. For any given claim of appropriation, we don’t even know that it does harm, nor that members of the group perceive it that way in general. There really is no comparison at all, and it seems like your argument is that they are similar in that people disagree about them, which is not a meaningful point.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

JohnBooty 5y ago

Or to give maybe a more direct example: a friend of mine (who is not Native American) used to make those “dream catcher” wall hangings. Obviously she meant no harm and saw it as a tribute; a sign of appreciation. A few people told her why it was not cool. She didn’t really understand/agree. But it’s also like: did she really need to make dream catchers? So, she relented, and just made different crafts. Moral being: she disagreed with the “consensus”, but still recognized that hey - it really did amount to to stepping on another groups’ toes, at least in their eyes, so why not just stop doing it? She wasn’t shamed, or canceled, or throw in jail. She just acted in a way she felt was for the common good. Didn’t cost her anything.

anon7725 5y ago
> a friend of mine (who is not Native American) used to make those “dream catcher” wall hangings. > A few people told her why it was not cool. Were those people Native American?
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  I think it's not super relevant but: my understanding is that they were of partial Native American descent. Reason why I say it's not super relevant in this particular case? As a white person, it would be ridiculous for me to attempt to speak for Native Americans or any other group. But it would be perfectly OK for me to say e.g. "hey, I think a lot of Native Americans aren't cool with white people making 'dream catchers' -- maybe look into that? Also here are some links to Native Americans talking about it?"
  - hn_ta_234465 5y ago
    This line of thinking seems so bizarre to me, perhaps because I'm not from the USA. You basically say that the race of people should govern what they do or not (make a specific art) or decides the truth value of their claims (you can't say X as a white person, but a native American can). It seems like in the quest of combating racism, you just ended up in a form of racism that's just inverted the direction of the previous one.

ahartmetz 5y ago

> But a lot of people from group ABC feel like it's pretty crappy for me to use XYZ. Let's assume you had chosen a better example, such as abusing a religious symbol as the logo of a nightclub... But there is also a whole lot of mindless calling-out going on regarding cultural appropriation. Most uses of imported cultural material are not meant to denigrate or minimize and don't do so by accident. "Stealing" culture is a stupid concept. Culture cannot be stolen, only disseminated.

JohnBooty 5y ago
But there is also a whole lot of mindless calling-out going on regarding cultural appropriation Absolutely agreed, although "some people are wrong about ___" doesn't automatically invalidate _____. I mean, what do you want to hear? Literally anything you want to do with anybody else's culture is okay and you don't even have to think about it because it's literally impossible for it to be anything but okay? There is a middle ground in which we agree that hey, some things are okay and some are better avoided.
goodpoint 5y ago
> "Stealing" culture is a stupid concept The wikipedia clarifies very well the concept of appropriation and how it's not a matter of theft.