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> I assume this implies killing all Israelis too? Yes. > Quite a statement to make about the vast majority of Gaza citizens that can barely survive. Talk to

> I assume this implies killing all Israelis too? Yes. > Quite a statement to make about the vast majority of Gaza citizens that can barely survive. Talk to them. Personally, I think that the reason this conflict is so misunderstood in the West is that you guys are just too distant from the cultural norms of the region, and literally can't believe that millions of people could openly and unapologetically be pro-genocide.

skinnymuch 5y ago
I have talked to some. You didn’t respond to any other parts of my post. Especially the main point I made of the listing of states in conflict where it is similarly not possible for the smaller side to wipe out the nicer one. The point of that is to show how unreasonable expecting any of those smaller states or people to ever be able to do a serious amount of damage to the stronger power. It is a stretch to say “millions” for Gaza. The population is under 2 million. Technically that is millions. Just want to clarify it means under 2M. It’s also hard to talk to them when I don’t live close by and The 1.8M people in Gaza use the energy equivalent to a town of under 25K people in the US.* * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electri...
- golergka 5y ago
  > Especially the main point I made of the listing of states in conflict where it is similarly not possible for the smaller side to wipe out the nicer one. You're conflating the sides of the conflict here. It's not palestinians versus israelis, and it started much earlier than in 20th century. Arabs have already wiped out all the jews from their states already in 1940s — some managed to flee to Israel, but many more were just killed. Yes, Israel managed to build bridges with some arab governments, from Egypt to Saudis, especially lately. But don't conflate government with countries. The majority of arabs all over the muslim world, both Sunni and Shia, despite their internal differences, offer wide popular support to complete genocide of jews.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    You’ve most the goal posts and entire discussion. What do Palestinians especially in Gaza, have to do with Arabs as a whole? Your original comment specifically said Palestine. So the topic is Palestine and Israel only. And that’s what it was when I did my comment. Also to note, Arab countries don’t care about Palestine. Egypt actively hurts Palestinians for example. Arab country leadership are awful. Otherwise your comment is a diff topic and isn’t relevant to the treatment, destruction, and deaths of Palestine. > Arabs have already wiped out all the jews from their states already in 1940s — some managed to flee to Israel, but many more were just killed. Do you have any citation for this? I tried looking for numbers. I could not find any besides the general numbers of nearly 1M expelled from Arab countries. Especially the “many more were just killed”.
    - golergka 5y ago
      > What do Palestinians especially in Gaza, have to do with Arabs as a whole? I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see any way of continuing a good faith, productive and civilised discussion after this question. I always try to steelman my opponent's arguments, but I just can't find a way to look at this and not perceive it as trolling.
      - skinnymuch 5y ago
        Interesting. Your comment appears to show you were never speaking in good faith to me. Which is sad. I can sort of see how people who have a bias against Palestinian and are in related bubbles and surroundings like mine as a white collar Westerner to be taken a back by a valid question like that. It's unfortunate and sad, but I get it. I don't get how it could ever be perceived as trolling from some one who is calm and trying to look for good faith. I am sure if I email the person in Gaza and the 2-3 in Israel I communicate with to ask the same Q, they'll respond with something like "you mean the common average Palestinian trying to live their life? Not much". -- Another factor that now may show you were never/not in good faith is not responding to my inquiry of "many more were just killed". I even switched my IP to an Israeli to get better Israeli sources. I could not find any stating what you wrote. Not close. I'd think you'd want to show that that what you wrote did in fact happen. Since you won't, I'll say from my checking of sources, close to 900K were pushed out of the Arab world. Counting up different loose numbers of the ones killed, almost entirely looking at pro-Israeli, pro-Jewish sources, gave a number less than 5% of 900K being killed.
doctorhandshake 5y ago
I agree with this. I find it amazing that the world expects Israeli leadership to ignore the stated goal of Hamas is to eradicate Israel[1]. Sometimes I ask people to imagine what it would be like if the inhabitants of a large Native American reservation began shelling a nearby US city after openly stating they will not rest until the USA is wiped from the earth. I’m choosing the Native American hypothetical advisedly because I think there are some parallels in the displacement history. To further the analogy, imagine now that the USA is the size of New Jersey, surrounded by states that have attempted also to wipe them out, and that Americans have been enslaved, persecuted, and harried across the globe for thousands of years since leaving New Jersey under duress the most recent time. I’m not a Zionist per se but I get it, and yet I think the formation of modern Israel had a cardinal sin in it, and now Israel is in a bind - threats aside, assuming there was a miraculous peace, allowing Palestinians to participate in Israeli politics _as is in many senses right_ would likely result in a situation in which the Hebrew people lose self-determination and risk being eradicated once again. I think, in response to the most recent Jewish holocaust, the founding mentality of the modern state of Israel was ‘we don’t care what anyone thinks of our methods, we will never be without a land of our own again,’ and, as an American Jew, I hate the way it’s playing out, but I get it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  > Sometimes I ask people to imagine what it would be like if the inhabitants of a large Native American reservation began shelling a nearby US city after openly stating they will not rest until the USA is wiped from the earth. This is easy. They have some valid claims in principle. They also have essentially no power or weapons. After the initial surprise. They’d be able to do nothing. Or in effect nothing. If the US then removed autonomy from these Native Americans, kept them locked in, and gave them electricity equivalent for the average American (aka 1 person) for 70 of the Native Americans, and continued this for decades and decades. That would be awful and cruel from the get go. What is this example supposed to show? > To further the analogy, imagine now that the USA is the size of New Jersey, surrounded by states that have attempted also to wipe them out, and that Americans have been enslaved, persecuted, and harried across the globe for thousands of years since leaving New Jersey under duress the most recent time. To extend this. NJ has the backing of the most powerful country in the world and almost every first world country. NJ is also richer and more powerful than any of the neighbors except for the one farther away who coincidentally has their tragedy, that most powerful country ally screwed with their country. This doesn’t make what they country (Iran) does good. Just nuance. The saddest part of this example is leaving out the Palestine. It’s very sad that they don’t even get to be part of the example. Though perhaps it is fitting as the Gaza Strip barely does exist as is. —- Your Israel bind is flawed. Why can’t Israel leave Palestine alone? Why do they have to incorporate Palestine into Israel? Leave the Gaza Strip alone. The one thing that shouldn’t be done is cutting the grass as Israel does now. With that being the current Israel SOP now, it muddies the water because Israel actually benefits from Hamas by having an easy excuse to cut the grass every so often. Your last point is again flawed. As strategies like cutting the grass above, suffocating Gaza Strip, and pushing settlements further and further has nothing to do with that mentality. ———- Sometimes people confuse people like me and assume I have some sort of allegiance or motive. I want harmony as it is possible. Of course the Arab country leadership and unfortunately many of their uneducated and screwed over in their own right citizens have awful reactions and thinking toward Israel. That’s bad. So is the treatment of Gaza Strip or number of Palestinian children who have been causalities in a period of time like this century. Israel being able to remain their own country and be prepared and strong. Nothing wrong with that! Why would there be? There are people born in Israel now who are 3rd generation now. That’s their home. If I thought any differently, that would make no sense and mean I have something against Jewish people or Israel. When I love both as much as any other country or group of people.

skinnymuch 5y ago

I have talked to some. You didn’t respond to any other parts of my post. Especially the main point I made of the listing of states in conflict where it is similarly not possible for the smaller side to wipe out the nicer one. The point of that is to show how unreasonable expecting any of those smaller states or people to ever be able to do a serious amount of damage to the stronger power. It is a stretch to say “millions” for Gaza. The population is under 2 million. Technically that is millions. Just want to clarify it means under 2M. It’s also hard to talk to them when I don’t live close by and The 1.8M people in Gaza use the energy equivalent to a town of under 25K people in the US.* * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electri...

golergka 5y ago
> Especially the main point I made of the listing of states in conflict where it is similarly not possible for the smaller side to wipe out the nicer one. You're conflating the sides of the conflict here. It's not palestinians versus israelis, and it started much earlier than in 20th century. Arabs have already wiped out all the jews from their states already in 1940s — some managed to flee to Israel, but many more were just killed. Yes, Israel managed to build bridges with some arab governments, from Egypt to Saudis, especially lately. But don't conflate government with countries. The majority of arabs all over the muslim world, both Sunni and Shia, despite their internal differences, offer wide popular support to complete genocide of jews.
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  You’ve most the goal posts and entire discussion. What do Palestinians especially in Gaza, have to do with Arabs as a whole? Your original comment specifically said Palestine. So the topic is Palestine and Israel only. And that’s what it was when I did my comment. Also to note, Arab countries don’t care about Palestine. Egypt actively hurts Palestinians for example. Arab country leadership are awful. Otherwise your comment is a diff topic and isn’t relevant to the treatment, destruction, and deaths of Palestine. > Arabs have already wiped out all the jews from their states already in 1940s — some managed to flee to Israel, but many more were just killed. Do you have any citation for this? I tried looking for numbers. I could not find any besides the general numbers of nearly 1M expelled from Arab countries. Especially the “many more were just killed”.
  - golergka 5y ago
    > What do Palestinians especially in Gaza, have to do with Arabs as a whole? I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see any way of continuing a good faith, productive and civilised discussion after this question. I always try to steelman my opponent's arguments, but I just can't find a way to look at this and not perceive it as trolling.
    - skinnymuch 5y ago
      Interesting. Your comment appears to show you were never speaking in good faith to me. Which is sad. I can sort of see how people who have a bias against Palestinian and are in related bubbles and surroundings like mine as a white collar Westerner to be taken a back by a valid question like that. It's unfortunate and sad, but I get it. I don't get how it could ever be perceived as trolling from some one who is calm and trying to look for good faith. I am sure if I email the person in Gaza and the 2-3 in Israel I communicate with to ask the same Q, they'll respond with something like "you mean the common average Palestinian trying to live their life? Not much". -- Another factor that now may show you were never/not in good faith is not responding to my inquiry of "many more were just killed". I even switched my IP to an Israeli to get better Israeli sources. I could not find any stating what you wrote. Not close. I'd think you'd want to show that that what you wrote did in fact happen. Since you won't, I'll say from my checking of sources, close to 900K were pushed out of the Arab world. Counting up different loose numbers of the ones killed, almost entirely looking at pro-Israeli, pro-Jewish sources, gave a number less than 5% of 900K being killed.

doctorhandshake 5y ago

I agree with this. I find it amazing that the world expects Israeli leadership to ignore the stated goal of Hamas is to eradicate Israel[1]. Sometimes I ask people to imagine what it would be like if the inhabitants of a large Native American reservation began shelling a nearby US city after openly stating they will not rest until the USA is wiped from the earth. I’m choosing the Native American hypothetical advisedly because I think there are some parallels in the displacement history. To further the analogy, imagine now that the USA is the size of New Jersey, surrounded by states that have attempted also to wipe them out, and that Americans have been enslaved, persecuted, and harried across the globe for thousands of years since leaving New Jersey under duress the most recent time. I’m not a Zionist per se but I get it, and yet I think the formation of modern Israel had a cardinal sin in it, and now Israel is in a bind - threats aside, assuming there was a miraculous peace, allowing Palestinians to participate in Israeli politics _as is in many senses right_ would likely result in a situation in which the Hebrew people lose self-determination and risk being eradicated once again. I think, in response to the most recent Jewish holocaust, the founding mentality of the modern state of Israel was ‘we don’t care what anyone thinks of our methods, we will never be without a land of our own again,’ and, as an American Jew, I hate the way it’s playing out, but I get it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

skinnymuch 5y ago
> Sometimes I ask people to imagine what it would be like if the inhabitants of a large Native American reservation began shelling a nearby US city after openly stating they will not rest until the USA is wiped from the earth. This is easy. They have some valid claims in principle. They also have essentially no power or weapons. After the initial surprise. They’d be able to do nothing. Or in effect nothing. If the US then removed autonomy from these Native Americans, kept them locked in, and gave them electricity equivalent for the average American (aka 1 person) for 70 of the Native Americans, and continued this for decades and decades. That would be awful and cruel from the get go. What is this example supposed to show? > To further the analogy, imagine now that the USA is the size of New Jersey, surrounded by states that have attempted also to wipe them out, and that Americans have been enslaved, persecuted, and harried across the globe for thousands of years since leaving New Jersey under duress the most recent time. To extend this. NJ has the backing of the most powerful country in the world and almost every first world country. NJ is also richer and more powerful than any of the neighbors except for the one farther away who coincidentally has their tragedy, that most powerful country ally screwed with their country. This doesn’t make what they country (Iran) does good. Just nuance. The saddest part of this example is leaving out the Palestine. It’s very sad that they don’t even get to be part of the example. Though perhaps it is fitting as the Gaza Strip barely does exist as is. —- Your Israel bind is flawed. Why can’t Israel leave Palestine alone? Why do they have to incorporate Palestine into Israel? Leave the Gaza Strip alone. The one thing that shouldn’t be done is cutting the grass as Israel does now. With that being the current Israel SOP now, it muddies the water because Israel actually benefits from Hamas by having an easy excuse to cut the grass every so often. Your last point is again flawed. As strategies like cutting the grass above, suffocating Gaza Strip, and pushing settlements further and further has nothing to do with that mentality. ———- Sometimes people confuse people like me and assume I have some sort of allegiance or motive. I want harmony as it is possible. Of course the Arab country leadership and unfortunately many of their uneducated and screwed over in their own right citizens have awful reactions and thinking toward Israel. That’s bad. So is the treatment of Gaza Strip or number of Palestinian children who have been causalities in a period of time like this century. Israel being able to remain their own country and be prepared and strong. Nothing wrong with that! Why would there be? There are people born in Israel now who are 3rd generation now. That’s their home. If I thought any differently, that would make no sense and mean I have something against Jewish people or Israel. When I love both as much as any other country or group of people.