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> Tesla also has an option to override the speed limit, you want to remove that too? Yes. The Alternative is to encode “break the law” in software and that mak

> Tesla also has an option to override the speed limit, you want to remove that too? Yes. The Alternative is to encode “break the law” in software and that makes for a very bad option. Stick to the law, computer.

judge2020 5y ago
The human driver is the one that told the car to disobey the stop sign[0]. Should every cruise control on every car with speed limit detection forbid the cruise/adaptive cruise to go above the speed limit? 0: the chill setting doesn't roll stop signs https://twitter.com/cooperlund/status/1488549356873695232?s=20&t=wpGxPKT1enE2q-uAyh1IbA https://twitter.com/cooperlund/status/1488549356873695232?s=...
- Xylakant 5y ago
  > Should every cruise control on every car with speed limit detection forbid the cruise/adaptive cruise to go above the speed limit? Certainly. Why should cruise control be set to above speed limit? Adaptive cruise control should reduce speed to remain within legal boundaries.
  - valine 5y ago
    Speed limits change, signs are obstructed, some speed limits are only valid for certain times of day. There’s plenty of legal reasons to override the posted speed limit.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      Drive on manual then, if your computer is not clever enough.
  - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
    I have a car with adaptive cruise control and speed limit detection, and this would absolutely drive me nuts. Not for any philosophical reasons, but because speed limit detection is fallible. On the expressway my apartment is a block away from, which has a speed limit of 50 mph, my car fairly frequently tells me the speed limit is actually 30. It's fairly common for it to read speed limit signs that have conditions on them -- only in effect certain hours, or during school hours, or when light is flashing, or if you're driving a truck -- and incorrectly assume that's the speed limit. Maybe you'd be perfectly happy with "if you don't want the cruise control to make mistakes, just never use it, because gosh darn it, that's better than allowing people to set the adaptive cruise control five miles an hour over the speed limit like they've been able to do with non-adaptive cruise control since it was a thing." I would not, and I would argue I am not the one taking an unreasonable stance.
sushid 5y ago
Do you never drive above the speed limit on the freeway? I highly doubt this...
- Xylakant 5y ago
  I’m not a computer, so that point is moot. (And yes, I don’t. Not deliberately, though it likely happens accidentally from time to time.)
  - SilasX 5y ago
    "Whether you're willing to hold computer drivers to higher standards than human drivers" is moot? Or you just don't feel obligated to reconcile the inconsistency?
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      I am willing to hold a computer to a higher standard, that’s the promise that gets made left and right for self driving cars. That they achieve a higher standard.
      - SilasX 5y ago
        What if it meets the higher standard of “being more safe” but not the higher standard of “obey current traffic laws that aren’t enforced against humans”?
parkingrift 5y ago
Unfortunately, self driving cars drive in the real world. There are a great many roadways in the US where driving the speed limit is legitimately dangerous in one direction or another. I live in New York and there is one such roadway I drive often. Palisades Interstate Parkway. The speed limit is 55 and there are no trucks allowed, but if you are driving 55 on this road you are in danger. You will get run off the road by everyone else traveling at a minimum of 65-70 with many of them 80+. There may come a day where humans are completely out of the equation, but until that time I believe self driving cars are safer if they drive more like human drivers. That means keeping up with traffic and other human quirks.
- Xylakant 5y ago
  Next week’s argument: “all first gen self driving cars are going 70 where 55 is allowed, we need to keep this setting.”
- martneumann 5y ago
  Wait, so you're saying that people would crash into you if you drove the speed limit? I'm a very calm driver and regularly drive at or sometimes below the speed limit if visibility or other factors don't allow higher speeds. People do slow down and I never felt in danger - granted, this is usually at around 40 km/h instead of the limit of 50 km/h, but I can't imagine people are so careless they'd "run you off the road" if you weren't speeding.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > Wait, so you're saying that people would crash into you if you drove the speed limit? Yes. If you're driving significantly above or below the speed of traffic, you're likely to cause an accident. https://qz.com/969885/almost-every-speed-limit-is-too-low/ https://qz.com/969885/almost-every-speed-limit-is-too-low/
  - parkingrift 5y ago
    >Wait, so you're saying that people would crash into you if you drove the speed limit? Maybe not literally crash into you, but that is certainly possible. People will swerve around you, ride your bumper, flash their high beams at you, honk, pull in front of you and hit the brakes, and other dangerous road rage type behavior. It is absolutely unsafe to drive the speed limit. In general the safest thing to do is just to keep up with traffic.
conanbatt 5y ago
And if the traffic law gets you killed, what then?
- Xylakant 5y ago
  It’s not the law that gets you killed. It’s the other drivers that disregard the law. And soon, the self-driving cars that disregard the law.
  - conanbatt 5y ago
    This axiomatic approach about the law has a clever solution: just make it legal for cars to disobey stop signs and then problem solved.
rocqua 5y ago
In the end, it is my choice whether I stick to the law. I'm fine with instituted consequences. I'm not fine with having the option to break a law removed. Some laws are stupid. Some are unjust. Some are racist. Discretion is valuable, probably even essential, for society.
SyzygistSix 5y ago
Do I really need to link Moxie Marlinspike's talk about why it is important to be able to break the law?

judge2020 5y ago

The human driver is the one that told the car to disobey the stop sign[0]. Should every cruise control on every car with speed limit detection forbid the cruise/adaptive cruise to go above the speed limit? 0: the chill setting doesn't roll stop signs https://twitter.com/cooperlund/status/1488549356873695232?s=20&t=wpGxPKT1enE2q-uAyh1IbA https://twitter.com/cooperlund/status/1488549356873695232?s=...

Xylakant 5y ago
> Should every cruise control on every car with speed limit detection forbid the cruise/adaptive cruise to go above the speed limit? Certainly. Why should cruise control be set to above speed limit? Adaptive cruise control should reduce speed to remain within legal boundaries.
- valine 5y ago
  Speed limits change, signs are obstructed, some speed limits are only valid for certain times of day. There’s plenty of legal reasons to override the posted speed limit.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    Drive on manual then, if your computer is not clever enough.
- chipotle_coyote 5y ago
  I have a car with adaptive cruise control and speed limit detection, and this would absolutely drive me nuts. Not for any philosophical reasons, but because speed limit detection is fallible. On the expressway my apartment is a block away from, which has a speed limit of 50 mph, my car fairly frequently tells me the speed limit is actually 30. It's fairly common for it to read speed limit signs that have conditions on them -- only in effect certain hours, or during school hours, or when light is flashing, or if you're driving a truck -- and incorrectly assume that's the speed limit. Maybe you'd be perfectly happy with "if you don't want the cruise control to make mistakes, just never use it, because gosh darn it, that's better than allowing people to set the adaptive cruise control five miles an hour over the speed limit like they've been able to do with non-adaptive cruise control since it was a thing." I would not, and I would argue I am not the one taking an unreasonable stance.

sushid 5y ago

Do you never drive above the speed limit on the freeway? I highly doubt this...

Xylakant 5y ago
I’m not a computer, so that point is moot. (And yes, I don’t. Not deliberately, though it likely happens accidentally from time to time.)
- SilasX 5y ago
  "Whether you're willing to hold computer drivers to higher standards than human drivers" is moot? Or you just don't feel obligated to reconcile the inconsistency?
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    I am willing to hold a computer to a higher standard, that’s the promise that gets made left and right for self driving cars. That they achieve a higher standard.
    - SilasX 5y ago
      What if it meets the higher standard of “being more safe” but not the higher standard of “obey current traffic laws that aren’t enforced against humans”?

parkingrift 5y ago

Unfortunately, self driving cars drive in the real world. There are a great many roadways in the US where driving the speed limit is legitimately dangerous in one direction or another. I live in New York and there is one such roadway I drive often. Palisades Interstate Parkway. The speed limit is 55 and there are no trucks allowed, but if you are driving 55 on this road you are in danger. You will get run off the road by everyone else traveling at a minimum of 65-70 with many of them 80+. There may come a day where humans are completely out of the equation, but until that time I believe self driving cars are safer if they drive more like human drivers. That means keeping up with traffic and other human quirks.

Xylakant 5y ago
Next week’s argument: “all first gen self driving cars are going 70 where 55 is allowed, we need to keep this setting.”
martneumann 5y ago
Wait, so you're saying that people would crash into you if you drove the speed limit? I'm a very calm driver and regularly drive at or sometimes below the speed limit if visibility or other factors don't allow higher speeds. People do slow down and I never felt in danger - granted, this is usually at around 40 km/h instead of the limit of 50 km/h, but I can't imagine people are so careless they'd "run you off the road" if you weren't speeding.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > Wait, so you're saying that people would crash into you if you drove the speed limit? Yes. If you're driving significantly above or below the speed of traffic, you're likely to cause an accident. https://qz.com/969885/almost-every-speed-limit-is-too-low/ https://qz.com/969885/almost-every-speed-limit-is-too-low/
- parkingrift 5y ago
  >Wait, so you're saying that people would crash into you if you drove the speed limit? Maybe not literally crash into you, but that is certainly possible. People will swerve around you, ride your bumper, flash their high beams at you, honk, pull in front of you and hit the brakes, and other dangerous road rage type behavior. It is absolutely unsafe to drive the speed limit. In general the safest thing to do is just to keep up with traffic.

conanbatt 5y ago

And if the traffic law gets you killed, what then?

Xylakant 5y ago
It’s not the law that gets you killed. It’s the other drivers that disregard the law. And soon, the self-driving cars that disregard the law.
- conanbatt 5y ago
  This axiomatic approach about the law has a clever solution: just make it legal for cars to disobey stop signs and then problem solved.

rocqua 5y ago

In the end, it is my choice whether I stick to the law. I'm fine with instituted consequences. I'm not fine with having the option to break a law removed. Some laws are stupid. Some are unjust. Some are racist. Discretion is valuable, probably even essential, for society.

SyzygistSix 5y ago

Do I really need to link Moxie Marlinspike's talk about why it is important to be able to break the law?