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> but I really want to see apples-to-apples comparison. EDIT: Luminar's car is on the other lane, and there's also a balloon-child in the Luminar's lane. You c

> but I really want to see apples-to-apples comparison. EDIT: Luminar's car is on the other lane, and there's also a balloon-child in the Luminar's lane. You can see Luminar's car clearly stop in the head-to-head test. There's also the "advanced" test, where the kid moves out from behind an obstacle here. Luminar's tech does well: https://twitter.com/PatrickMoorhead/status/1478764515260911617 https://twitter.com/PatrickMoorhead/status/14787645152609116... > I would expect Tesla to also stop if a child was running across the movement path in broad daylight. Nope. https://jalopnik.com/this-clip-of-a-tesla-model-3-failing-an-automatic-emerg-1845129387 https://jalopnik.com/this-clip-of-a-tesla-model-3-failing-an... https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-09-03/tesla-was-on-autopilot-when-it-hit-culver-city-fire-truck-ntsb-finds https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-09-03/tesla-was-... This "tech" can't even see a firetruck in broad daylight. Why do you think it can see a child? This isn't a one-off freak accident either. "crashing into stopped emergency vehicles with flashing lights in broad daylight" is common enough that NHTSA has opened up an investigation into this rather specific effect: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2021/INOA-PE21020-1893.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2021/INOA-PE21020-1893.PDF

celsoazevedo 5y ago
The camera alone seems to see a lot: - 2018: https://youtu.be/_1MHGUC_BzQ https://youtu.be/_1MHGUC_BzQ - 2021: https://youtu.be/XfqabC_akV0 https://youtu.be/XfqabC_akV0 Is the car reacting to what it's seeing? Probably not, but I'm not sure if adding a lidar fixes that.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > The camera alone seems to see a lot: In perfect conditions, on a sunny day. I'm in Sweden, and the sun shining directly into your eyes from barely above the horizon while the road is wet/covered with snow and reflects that sun at you is a regular occurence during winter months. I odubt Tesla's camera will be able to see anything.
  - tragictrash 5y ago
    This is the reason why a single camera alone is not capable of being the sole source of information for a self-driving system. The technology currently available for camera systems does not capture a high enough dynamic range to be able to see details in darkness when the Sun in in frame. You could use multiple cameras all with different sensitivities to light and combine them, but it's going to be very difficult.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - nine_k 5y ago
      Why would it be very difficult? You can split the same light beam after the lens, and send it to two cameras with different diaphragm or sensitivity. You'd then synthesize a perfectly aligned HDR picture.
      - tragictrash 5y ago
        I think you two just proved my point
    - himinlomax 5y ago
      I really don't see what's difficult. You don't even need multiple cameras, you can simply use very short exposures and combine short exposure shots into a longer exposure one when needed. Multiple cameras are useful to handle glare though.
      - tragictrash 5y ago
        I think you two just proved my point
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Its because Tesla cars are regularly causing "phantom braking" events. Tesla is trapped between a rock and a hard place. Their "phantom braking" events are causing a lot of dismay to their drivers (https://electrek.co/2021/11/15/tesla-serious-phantom-braking-problem-autopilot/ https://electrek.co/2021/11/15/tesla-serious-phantom-braking...). But if they reduce phantom-braking, they increase the chance of hitting that child on the road.
  - SEJeff 5y ago
    Elon claims that the radar was the primary source of phantom braking. He said that matching up a high fidelity sensor (the cameras) with a lower fidelity sensor (the radar) was proving near impossible. I also suspect the supply chain pains massively factored into his decision to remove the radar from all vehicles since roughly late January of last year.
    - buildbot 5y ago
      Anyone in the car industry would know this as obviously false? Radar based emergency breaking is availability and works really well in many cars from 5+ years ago.
      - SEJeff 5y ago
        I’m not debating the validity. This is literally what Elon said.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Radar was removed in May 2021, which predates the article I quoted by multiple months. I'm sure Elon was blaming Radar for phantom braking in the April / May time period. We can give a few months for the cars to update to the newest version as well. But by November 2021, RADAR was no longer a relevant excuse. I think you may be mistaken about when Elon said what and when. You gotta keep the dates in mind.
      - SEJeff 5y ago
bananabreakfast 5y ago
"Opening an investigation" means nothing before a conclusion is reached. The accusations could be valid or totally baseless, investigations are opened regardless and specifically to find out validity.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  > The accusations could be valid or totally baseless Read the listed report. All 11 accidents were confirmed to be: 1. Tesla vehicles 2. Confirmed to be on autopilot / full self driving. 3. Against a stopped emergency vehicle with flashing lights or road flares. These facts are not in dispute. The accusations aren't "baseless", the only question remaining is "how widespread" is this phenomenon. These 11 accidents have resulted in 1-fatality and 11 injuries. -------- We are _WAY_ past "validity" of the claims. We're at "lets set up demos at CES to market ourselves using Tesla as a comparison point", because Tesla is provably that unreliable at stopping in these conditions.
  - andrepd 5y ago
    Hey, move fast and break things. And call your terrible experimental technology "autopilot".
Kaytaro 5y ago
Tesla partnered with Luminar by the way and even tested their LiDAR on a model 3 last year. I guess they weren't impressed though, since they seem to still be all-in on passive optical recognition.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  The public line from Musk for a while has been "LiDAR doesn't work in inclement weather, so L5 autonomous driving can't rely on LiDAR" Obviously his stated motivation and actual motivation need not be the same.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - waste_monk 5y ago
    At least Tesla are consistent - the self driving is dangerously unreliable under any weather condition :)
- Closi 5y ago
  > I guess they weren't impressed though, since they seem to still be all-in on passive optical recognition. That's one take - the other take is that they have been selling cars claiming that they are capable of full FSD because they are going to sell it without Lidar, and have been selling FSD as a $5k bolt on, so swapping to Lidar at this point would be a PR nightmare even if it was a better solution.... That's the cynical view though... (Although I also wouldn't be the one to tell the people that have spent lots of money on Autopilot that they have bought total vaporware - or be the CFO that announces they are back-fitting Lidar cameras). Once you are all-in on 'lidar is shit' it makes it hard to reverse the trend, despite rapidly falling costs.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    >Once you are all-in on 'lidar is shit' it makes it hard to reverse the trend It can be done, if there's good cause. Just partner with your lidar oem of choice, get them to do a white paper about how the latest point increase version of hardware or firmware is "revolutionary!" and then claim that your earlier criticisms of lidar have been fully addressed by the groundbreaking new lidar tech.

celsoazevedo 5y ago

The camera alone seems to see a lot: - 2018: https://youtu.be/_1MHGUC_BzQ https://youtu.be/_1MHGUC_BzQ - 2021: https://youtu.be/XfqabC_akV0 https://youtu.be/XfqabC_akV0 Is the car reacting to what it's seeing? Probably not, but I'm not sure if adding a lidar fixes that.

dmitriid 5y ago
> The camera alone seems to see a lot: In perfect conditions, on a sunny day. I'm in Sweden, and the sun shining directly into your eyes from barely above the horizon while the road is wet/covered with snow and reflects that sun at you is a regular occurence during winter months. I odubt Tesla's camera will be able to see anything.
- tragictrash 5y ago
  This is the reason why a single camera alone is not capable of being the sole source of information for a self-driving system. The technology currently available for camera systems does not capture a high enough dynamic range to be able to see details in darkness when the Sun in in frame. You could use multiple cameras all with different sensitivities to light and combine them, but it's going to be very difficult.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - nine_k 5y ago
    Why would it be very difficult? You can split the same light beam after the lens, and send it to two cameras with different diaphragm or sensitivity. You'd then synthesize a perfectly aligned HDR picture.
    - tragictrash 5y ago
      I think you two just proved my point
  - himinlomax 5y ago
    I really don't see what's difficult. You don't even need multiple cameras, you can simply use very short exposures and combine short exposure shots into a longer exposure one when needed. Multiple cameras are useful to handle glare though.
    - tragictrash 5y ago
      I think you two just proved my point
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
dragontamer 5y ago
Its because Tesla cars are regularly causing "phantom braking" events. Tesla is trapped between a rock and a hard place. Their "phantom braking" events are causing a lot of dismay to their drivers (https://electrek.co/2021/11/15/tesla-serious-phantom-braking-problem-autopilot/ https://electrek.co/2021/11/15/tesla-serious-phantom-braking...). But if they reduce phantom-braking, they increase the chance of hitting that child on the road.
- SEJeff 5y ago
  Elon claims that the radar was the primary source of phantom braking. He said that matching up a high fidelity sensor (the cameras) with a lower fidelity sensor (the radar) was proving near impossible. I also suspect the supply chain pains massively factored into his decision to remove the radar from all vehicles since roughly late January of last year.
  - buildbot 5y ago
    Anyone in the car industry would know this as obviously false? Radar based emergency breaking is availability and works really well in many cars from 5+ years ago.
    - SEJeff 5y ago
      I’m not debating the validity. This is literally what Elon said.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Radar was removed in May 2021, which predates the article I quoted by multiple months. I'm sure Elon was blaming Radar for phantom braking in the April / May time period. We can give a few months for the cars to update to the newest version as well. But by November 2021, RADAR was no longer a relevant excuse. I think you may be mistaken about when Elon said what and when. You gotta keep the dates in mind.
    - SEJeff 5y ago

bananabreakfast 5y ago

"Opening an investigation" means nothing before a conclusion is reached. The accusations could be valid or totally baseless, investigations are opened regardless and specifically to find out validity.

dragontamer 5y ago
> The accusations could be valid or totally baseless Read the listed report. All 11 accidents were confirmed to be: 1. Tesla vehicles 2. Confirmed to be on autopilot / full self driving. 3. Against a stopped emergency vehicle with flashing lights or road flares. These facts are not in dispute. The accusations aren't "baseless", the only question remaining is "how widespread" is this phenomenon. These 11 accidents have resulted in 1-fatality and 11 injuries. -------- We are _WAY_ past "validity" of the claims. We're at "lets set up demos at CES to market ourselves using Tesla as a comparison point", because Tesla is provably that unreliable at stopping in these conditions.
- andrepd 5y ago
  Hey, move fast and break things. And call your terrible experimental technology "autopilot".

Kaytaro 5y ago

Tesla partnered with Luminar by the way and even tested their LiDAR on a model 3 last year. I guess they weren't impressed though, since they seem to still be all-in on passive optical recognition.

aidenn0 5y ago
The public line from Musk for a while has been "LiDAR doesn't work in inclement weather, so L5 autonomous driving can't rely on LiDAR" Obviously his stated motivation and actual motivation need not be the same.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- waste_monk 5y ago
  At least Tesla are consistent - the self driving is dangerously unreliable under any weather condition :)
Closi 5y ago
> I guess they weren't impressed though, since they seem to still be all-in on passive optical recognition. That's one take - the other take is that they have been selling cars claiming that they are capable of full FSD because they are going to sell it without Lidar, and have been selling FSD as a $5k bolt on, so swapping to Lidar at this point would be a PR nightmare even if it was a better solution.... That's the cynical view though... (Although I also wouldn't be the one to tell the people that have spent lots of money on Autopilot that they have bought total vaporware - or be the CFO that announces they are back-fitting Lidar cameras). Once you are all-in on 'lidar is shit' it makes it hard to reverse the trend, despite rapidly falling costs.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  >Once you are all-in on 'lidar is shit' it makes it hard to reverse the trend It can be done, if there's good cause. Just partner with your lidar oem of choice, get them to do a white paper about how the latest point increase version of hardware or firmware is "revolutionary!" and then claim that your earlier criticisms of lidar have been fully addressed by the groundbreaking new lidar tech.