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Israel is nowhere close to an apartheid state https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29556722 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29556722 Ask yourself how man

Israel is nowhere close to an apartheid state https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29556722 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29556722 Ask yourself how many Jews live in and could safely become sociopolitically engaged in surrounding Arab nations. It's mind blowing to me that Israel is targeted with this kind of rhetoric without relative comparison to surrounding nations. It's mentioned only in passing in the article as if it's no big deal, when it's critically important to the geopolitical examination of the region. Not to mention the PLA and Hamas literally want to genocide the Jews and have repeatedly rejected more than fair solutions.

wbsss4412 5y ago
> It's mind blowing to me that Israel is targeted with this kind of rhetoric without relative comparison to surrounding nations > Not to mention the PLA and Hamas literally want to genocide the Jews and have repeatedly rejected more than fair solutions. This reads as whataboutism to me. Israel is held to higher standards in the west and in particular the US because it is an extremely close ally and unquestionable support for Israel is treated at a litmus test for public life. What is deemed as “fair” is dependent upon one’s point of view. And while I can sit here and defend hamas, I am not aware of the PLA advocating anything genocidal at any point in the past.
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  The original PLO charter called for the explicit and complete destruction of Israel. Objective rebuttal to today's report follows https://www.jns.org/opinion/the-amnesty-report-on-israel-affirms-the-plos-60-year-apartheid-strategy/ https://www.jns.org/opinion/the-amnesty-report-on-israel-aff...
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    Calling for the destruction of a political entity is not the same thing as calling for the genocide of the population that is governed by said entity. Despite what Israel’s advocates say, objecting to a particular political arrangement for the territory that is Israel/Palestine is not inherently anti Semitic nor anything close to advocating genocide. Personally I don’t like the idea of ethno-religious nation states.
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      Context and consensus is that "elimination of Israel" was obviously not purely as a political entity. Leaders of the PLO have plainly called for the elimination of the Jews, as previous source and following outlines. I'm no fan of ethnic theocracies either, and it turns out Israel is the only nation that isn't one in the middle east. http://internationalwallofprayer.org/A-077-The-Infamous-PLO-Covenant.html http://internationalwallofprayer.org/A-077-The-Infamous-PLO-...
      - wbsss4412 5y ago
        Your source says nothing of any PLO leaders calling for the wholesale elimination of Jews from Palestine, only Zionism, ie Jewish colonization of the territory of Palestine/Israel. It says it could be considered a call for genocide, except it wasn’t. The original charter explicitly characterized Palestinian Jews as Palestinians who would be a part of their desired state of Palestine. It was a nationalist document, not a religious one. The Islamic bent of the conflict only came later as political Islam grew in response to conflict with the west. > I'm no fan of ethnic theocracies either, and it turns out Israel is the only nation that isn't one in the middle east. Again, whataboutism. Israel is a self proclaimed Jewish state. That’s what Zionism is. You can’t just hand wave that away.
        defaultprimate 5y ago
        You didn't read them very closely or pay attention to quotes by Yasser Arafat and his successor or associates. What do you propose the Jews do? Allow another totalitarian theocratic ethnostate to inhabit the land and disperse among the western civilizations? Can you understand why that may be something to be wary of for them as an ethnic group? Or should they continue to be the only free, secular, democratic melting pot in the middle east? None of the things they're accused of to earn the label "apartheid" are based in fact.
        wbsss4412 5y ago
        I looked again, and there aren’t any quotes from Arafat? None of the states that Israel share a border with are theocratic enthostates. Iran? Yes. Lebanon? No. Again you are playing on the “Arabs are barbarous therefore Israel is good” trope. I am far more bothered by the US alliance with Saudi Arabia, but that doesn’t make Israel’s action just simply because of the comparison. Further, at no point have I been proscriptive about what Israel must do here. Due to the century and a half of conflict now, things have gotten extremely difficult and tangled. I do, however, object to what multiple independent western human rights organizations have characterized as apartheid, though. I would like to see a path towards a solution with one democratic state wherein all of the people inhabiting Israel as well as the occupied territories have full citizenship, and the Jewish population can live in peace and security. I do not see any straight path there, though.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    This entire piece is just a series of ad hominem attacks and ranting about how this is all just a continuation of Soviet plots to discredit Israel. It doesn’t even attempt to address the facts on the ground from the report.

wbsss4412 5y ago

> It's mind blowing to me that Israel is targeted with this kind of rhetoric without relative comparison to surrounding nations > Not to mention the PLA and Hamas literally want to genocide the Jews and have repeatedly rejected more than fair solutions. This reads as whataboutism to me. Israel is held to higher standards in the west and in particular the US because it is an extremely close ally and unquestionable support for Israel is treated at a litmus test for public life. What is deemed as “fair” is dependent upon one’s point of view. And while I can sit here and defend hamas, I am not aware of the PLA advocating anything genocidal at any point in the past.

defaultprimate 5y ago
The original PLO charter called for the explicit and complete destruction of Israel. Objective rebuttal to today's report follows https://www.jns.org/opinion/the-amnesty-report-on-israel-affirms-the-plos-60-year-apartheid-strategy/ https://www.jns.org/opinion/the-amnesty-report-on-israel-aff...
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  Calling for the destruction of a political entity is not the same thing as calling for the genocide of the population that is governed by said entity. Despite what Israel’s advocates say, objecting to a particular political arrangement for the territory that is Israel/Palestine is not inherently anti Semitic nor anything close to advocating genocide. Personally I don’t like the idea of ethno-religious nation states.
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    Context and consensus is that "elimination of Israel" was obviously not purely as a political entity. Leaders of the PLO have plainly called for the elimination of the Jews, as previous source and following outlines. I'm no fan of ethnic theocracies either, and it turns out Israel is the only nation that isn't one in the middle east. http://internationalwallofprayer.org/A-077-The-Infamous-PLO-Covenant.html http://internationalwallofprayer.org/A-077-The-Infamous-PLO-...
    - wbsss4412 5y ago
      Your source says nothing of any PLO leaders calling for the wholesale elimination of Jews from Palestine, only Zionism, ie Jewish colonization of the territory of Palestine/Israel. It says it could be considered a call for genocide, except it wasn’t. The original charter explicitly characterized Palestinian Jews as Palestinians who would be a part of their desired state of Palestine. It was a nationalist document, not a religious one. The Islamic bent of the conflict only came later as political Islam grew in response to conflict with the west. > I'm no fan of ethnic theocracies either, and it turns out Israel is the only nation that isn't one in the middle east. Again, whataboutism. Israel is a self proclaimed Jewish state. That’s what Zionism is. You can’t just hand wave that away.
      - defaultprimate 5y ago
        You didn't read them very closely or pay attention to quotes by Yasser Arafat and his successor or associates. What do you propose the Jews do? Allow another totalitarian theocratic ethnostate to inhabit the land and disperse among the western civilizations? Can you understand why that may be something to be wary of for them as an ethnic group? Or should they continue to be the only free, secular, democratic melting pot in the middle east? None of the things they're accused of to earn the label "apartheid" are based in fact.
        wbsss4412 5y ago
        I looked again, and there aren’t any quotes from Arafat? None of the states that Israel share a border with are theocratic enthostates. Iran? Yes. Lebanon? No. Again you are playing on the “Arabs are barbarous therefore Israel is good” trope. I am far more bothered by the US alliance with Saudi Arabia, but that doesn’t make Israel’s action just simply because of the comparison. Further, at no point have I been proscriptive about what Israel must do here. Due to the century and a half of conflict now, things have gotten extremely difficult and tangled. I do, however, object to what multiple independent western human rights organizations have characterized as apartheid, though. I would like to see a path towards a solution with one democratic state wherein all of the people inhabiting Israel as well as the occupied territories have full citizenship, and the Jewish population can live in peace and security. I do not see any straight path there, though.
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  This entire piece is just a series of ad hominem attacks and ranting about how this is all just a continuation of Soviet plots to discredit Israel. It doesn’t even attempt to address the facts on the ground from the report.