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The problem is, that you can always "force" the user to allow you notifications or cannot proceed. And $GREEDY_MEGACORP would abuse their power and send you a "

The problem is, that you can always "force" the user to allow you notifications or cannot proceed. And $GREEDY_MEGACORP would abuse their power and send you a "verification code" through the push notification, else you cannot process the signup etc. The good thing about the Apple Appstore, that promotional/marketing push notifications are forbidden and will get your App banned from the Appstore. Just allowing generic WebPush on PWAs will result in companies requiring it with dark patterns, just to increase your "engagement" with their product (read: send you spam). I have mixed feelings about webpush, I myself as a developer want it for my users, but I see the history of the web and how everything nice got destroyed eventually by spam.

deergomoo 5y ago
> that promotional/marketing push notifications are forbidden Not anymore they’re not. It wasn’t enforced when it was on the books; last year the rule was removed. Even Apple advertise their own services via push now.
rezonant 5y ago
As others point out, promotional pushes are allowed on iOS. A site can refuse to give you content if you don't allow push notifications but in practice that doesn't happen because the incentive of the site is to have more traffic. Android has had this capability for an eon and I have never experienced a site try to force you to accept push notifications. I have also never observed a site try to use push notifications as a "verification" method. Do you have an example of this in the wild? And you can always control your allowance of push notifications after the fact, either at the moment you receive the offending notification or from the site settings. Android specifically has a fantastic way to do this without even leaving your notification area. Not sure how Apple's system works in that regard.
- zaphirplane 5y ago
  rottentomatoes is an example site that blocks if you have ads or tracker blockers
  - rezonant 5y ago
    Plenty of sites lock you out if you have an ad blocker, here we're talking about locking you out because you have not granted them permission to send you web push notifications...
    - zaphirplane 5y ago
      The argument IIRC is sites want eyeballs and wouldn’t block content if you don’t grant notification permissions. Blocking for Ad/trackers is not so dissimilar
      - kanwisher 5y ago
        They don’t make money if they don’t have ads and trackers. Push notification is just to get you to visit more often. Why would they want to serve the site to freeloaders
wruza 5y ago
This problem is not a problem if you have incoming information filters, which email had for ages. You don’t have to have mixed feelings, just split it in two parts and have clear feelings of each. The real problem is that corporations treat all users as idiots who can’t control their software. But a big part of them are not. These talks about users unable to setup their devices (or to get help from someone who can) is nonsense they want us to believe in. And I see signs everywhere that most of software-versed people already believe in it. Feels like seeing sophisticated math proofs, all based on 1+1==3 for some reason.
Mindwipe 5y ago
> The good thing about the Apple Appstore, that promotional/marketing push notifications are forbidden and will get your App banned from the Appstore. Lol, no it won't. Apple do promotional notifications themselves even.
TheMatten 5y ago
Can you though? Wouldn't it be enough to create interface that would let you view notifications of currently opened tab without giving it permission to show them through OS interface in background?

deergomoo 5y ago

> that promotional/marketing push notifications are forbidden Not anymore they’re not. It wasn’t enforced when it was on the books; last year the rule was removed. Even Apple advertise their own services via push now.

rezonant 5y ago

As others point out, promotional pushes are allowed on iOS. A site can refuse to give you content if you don't allow push notifications but in practice that doesn't happen because the incentive of the site is to have more traffic. Android has had this capability for an eon and I have never experienced a site try to force you to accept push notifications. I have also never observed a site try to use push notifications as a "verification" method. Do you have an example of this in the wild? And you can always control your allowance of push notifications after the fact, either at the moment you receive the offending notification or from the site settings. Android specifically has a fantastic way to do this without even leaving your notification area. Not sure how Apple's system works in that regard.

zaphirplane 5y ago
rottentomatoes is an example site that blocks if you have ads or tracker blockers
- rezonant 5y ago
  Plenty of sites lock you out if you have an ad blocker, here we're talking about locking you out because you have not granted them permission to send you web push notifications...
  - zaphirplane 5y ago
    The argument IIRC is sites want eyeballs and wouldn’t block content if you don’t grant notification permissions. Blocking for Ad/trackers is not so dissimilar
    - kanwisher 5y ago
      They don’t make money if they don’t have ads and trackers. Push notification is just to get you to visit more often. Why would they want to serve the site to freeloaders

wruza 5y ago

This problem is not a problem if you have incoming information filters, which email had for ages. You don’t have to have mixed feelings, just split it in two parts and have clear feelings of each. The real problem is that corporations treat all users as idiots who can’t control their software. But a big part of them are not. These talks about users unable to setup their devices (or to get help from someone who can) is nonsense they want us to believe in. And I see signs everywhere that most of software-versed people already believe in it. Feels like seeing sophisticated math proofs, all based on 1+1==3 for some reason.

Mindwipe 5y ago

> The good thing about the Apple Appstore, that promotional/marketing push notifications are forbidden and will get your App banned from the Appstore. Lol, no it won't. Apple do promotional notifications themselves even.

TheMatten 5y ago

Can you though? Wouldn't it be enough to create interface that would let you view notifications of currently opened tab without giving it permission to show them through OS interface in background?