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> Real tech people Ah this fun gatekeeping meme rears it's head again. So how do you define "tech" people? Do you have a scorecard? How do they meet your ass

> Real tech people Ah this fun gatekeeping meme rears it's head again. So how do you define "tech" people? Do you have a scorecard? How do they meet your assessment for "real"? Cohesive organization of atomic matter generally constitutes "real" in a lot of physics definitions. I'd argue trying to label someone a "real tech person" is a laughably subjective exercise that's so corrupted by personal bias and toxicity as to be utterly useless in evaluating someone's capability to participate in organized software engineering. Case in point: I have worked with several folks, in FAANG, who by all technical standards were "real" tech people. Polyglot programmers, could tackle any sticky logic problem. Ask them to communicate their solution to other engineers? To communicate with others with empathy? Be able to navigate conversations with directors and VPs about broadly implementing their solutions? Absolutely, 100% fell on their face. Couldn't do it. They couldn't form a cohesive, understandable, actionable statement about their work to save their lives. They'd go off on some completely pointless technical tangent that had little to do with the problem at hand. Code reviews they participated in ground to a complete fucking halt. Not because they actually addressed meaningful technical issues. No, they wanted to pontificate and show off how much smarter they were. In my not totally hard-data experience, people that maybe didn't have quite the "real tech people" skills but were expressive, capable communicators often actually shipped more meaningful work, more often, and built organizational equity not just for themselves, but for their teammates and managers too. Software development at any scale, like it or not, involves working with other people. In my experience people that go around gatekeeping and using some hilariously subjective ruler to grade "realness" aren't very effective at all.

0des 5y ago
I take it by your confrontational response that their comment hooked you somewhat. I can assure you it's the truth, and though it may or may not have been relevant to you in a way that affected you emotionally, the words ring true in my experience. Those who can do the thing don't mince words about it, the ones who can't need to massage what they're saying a bit to not lay the bad news on you like a ton of bricks; it is natural for people to want to be accepted socially.
- Tehchops 5y ago
  "Truth" and "rings true in your experience" aren't necessarily overlapping values. Sure, it's a confrontational response, because I've seen too many solid, empathetic, capable individuals run out of tech by toxic gatekeeping bullshit just like this. Then all I'm left to manage and work with are toxic, self-aggrandizing, "um akshually" engineers who rate appearing smarter than others over working well with others and getting things done.
  - 0des 5y ago
    What is the need to interject the word 'manage' in there? Is that a powermove? edit: Have a great day, I'm going to let this one go. Things to do, code to write :)
    - Tehchops 5y ago
      Have a good day as well!
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    I agree that people trying to appear smarter is toxic, at least if done very often. (Even if not done often, maybe it's still toxic, just not a lethal dose.) That isn't what I meant. It really comes down to this: You can't blather at the computer. You have to make very precise statements to the computer. If you can't be precise in your communications, you can't program. That usually spills over into human communications, too. People who can talk to computers can usually talk to humans who can talk to computers, because they can use at least some of the same terms with the same meanings. And they can talk with the same mindset. You can't show off to the computer. You can't get the code to compile or to run by using more flowery wording. Tech people tend to carry that mindset into their communication with each other.
onphonenow 5y ago
The point folks are making here is that folks who go on these long rants, demand "hard data" for every experience, write in over formal language, say things like "corrupted by personal bias and toxicity as to be utterly useless" may not be that able / focused on just moving forward on stuff - it's all tied up in ego ego ego type things. You like the posters approach? Fine. I don't find their style (or yours) to be either healthy or productive and it just can stress teams out to have to work with someone super high need.
- Tehchops 5y ago
  > "corrupted by personal bias and toxicity as to be utterly useless" may not be that able / focused on just moving forward on stuff. It's the same recycled logic of people who want to return to the times of being able to say whatever they want, and people who are offended just "need to move on". This kind of thinking is why homophobia/misogyny/racism is still so prevalent in tech. Dog whistles like "real tech people" or "super high need" or "people that just can't move on". It's a lot more convenient and dismissive to associate it with some kind of lack of performance. "Oh they should just focus on the code, thank god for all the coders who never want to attend meetings and just code..." I know you don't like my "style", but I'm afraid most organized software development is starting to become more aware of the need to be empathetic and accepting of the human element, not less, and just "getting over it and coding" isn't an acceptable answer anymore.

0des 5y ago

I take it by your confrontational response that their comment hooked you somewhat. I can assure you it's the truth, and though it may or may not have been relevant to you in a way that affected you emotionally, the words ring true in my experience. Those who can do the thing don't mince words about it, the ones who can't need to massage what they're saying a bit to not lay the bad news on you like a ton of bricks; it is natural for people to want to be accepted socially.

Tehchops 5y ago
"Truth" and "rings true in your experience" aren't necessarily overlapping values. Sure, it's a confrontational response, because I've seen too many solid, empathetic, capable individuals run out of tech by toxic gatekeeping bullshit just like this. Then all I'm left to manage and work with are toxic, self-aggrandizing, "um akshually" engineers who rate appearing smarter than others over working well with others and getting things done.
- 0des 5y ago
  What is the need to interject the word 'manage' in there? Is that a powermove? edit: Have a great day, I'm going to let this one go. Things to do, code to write :)
  - Tehchops 5y ago
    Have a good day as well!
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  I agree that people trying to appear smarter is toxic, at least if done very often. (Even if not done often, maybe it's still toxic, just not a lethal dose.) That isn't what I meant. It really comes down to this: You can't blather at the computer. You have to make very precise statements to the computer. If you can't be precise in your communications, you can't program. That usually spills over into human communications, too. People who can talk to computers can usually talk to humans who can talk to computers, because they can use at least some of the same terms with the same meanings. And they can talk with the same mindset. You can't show off to the computer. You can't get the code to compile or to run by using more flowery wording. Tech people tend to carry that mindset into their communication with each other.

onphonenow 5y ago

The point folks are making here is that folks who go on these long rants, demand "hard data" for every experience, write in over formal language, say things like "corrupted by personal bias and toxicity as to be utterly useless" may not be that able / focused on just moving forward on stuff - it's all tied up in ego ego ego type things. You like the posters approach? Fine. I don't find their style (or yours) to be either healthy or productive and it just can stress teams out to have to work with someone super high need.

Tehchops 5y ago
> "corrupted by personal bias and toxicity as to be utterly useless" may not be that able / focused on just moving forward on stuff. It's the same recycled logic of people who want to return to the times of being able to say whatever they want, and people who are offended just "need to move on". This kind of thinking is why homophobia/misogyny/racism is still so prevalent in tech. Dog whistles like "real tech people" or "super high need" or "people that just can't move on". It's a lot more convenient and dismissive to associate it with some kind of lack of performance. "Oh they should just focus on the code, thank god for all the coders who never want to attend meetings and just code..." I know you don't like my "style", but I'm afraid most organized software development is starting to become more aware of the need to be empathetic and accepting of the human element, not less, and just "getting over it and coding" isn't an acceptable answer anymore.