5 ms·

Closeness isn't a requisite for nepotistic behavior, only undue bias due to personal familiarity. Actually it is; it's how the term is defined.

by vanusa 5y ago

TameAntelope 5y ago
Actually it is not; this is how the term is defined: > nep·o·tism - /ˈnepəˌtizəm/ - noun - the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. [0] > Nepotism is a form of favoritism which is granted to relatives and friends in various fields, including business, politics, entertainment, sports, fitness, religion, and other activities. [1] [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Anepotism https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Anepotism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepotism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepotism
- vanusa 5y ago
  The practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, That's precisely the point - "close" relations. When we talk about business referrals, it by no means implied that the person being referred is a "friend" in the usual sense of the term (let alone relative). Usually it's just someone you vaguely know (by their work, and/or a chance encounter at a meetup or conference), but don't know too well personally. And just because they come in via a referral does not mean, ipso facto, that "favoritism" is happening and all objectivity is thrown out the window in the evaluation process.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    We may be violently agreeing here; what is bad is the idea that someone can get a job because they know someone else, over a more qualified candidate who doesn't know that person already. We agree this is bad, yes? Our industry is uniquely, as in above-replacement-industry, plagued by a diversity problem, and I'm asserting the practice among those in power of favoring relatives, friends, or even friends of friends over other, more qualified candidates is a contributing factor to that diversity problem. It is not guaranteed that this always happens, but I am asserting it often is (as evinced by the "lack of interview" or "going by reputation only" as reputation is rife with bias), and that is a bad thing.
    - vanusa 5y ago
      We may be violently agreeing here; Violence is completely counter to my way of being - so No. What is bad is the idea that someone can get a job because they know someone else, over a more qualified candidate who doesn't know that person already. We agree this is bad, yes? We keep going in circles - with this idea that person that someone in the company already "knows" (or who came in via a referral anyway) gets the job at the expense not just of a comparably qualified (but not known to the company) candidate, a hypothetical more qualified candidate. You just keep assuming that this what happens when companies act on referrals (and implicitly, that it happens a lot). That's now that I see happening, when referrals are made. But if it's what you want to believe, then it's what you want to believe - and there probably isn't anything I'll be able to say to dissuade you from this belief.
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        Violent agreement is just a term for when people seem to be disagreeing but actually aren't. [0] If that is completely counter to your way of being, then it's possible your way of being isn't compatible with the concept of constructive argument. And I'm confused about where I said anything about certainty. I'm not talking about how all companies operate all of the time, I'm talking about how some companies operate an unfortunate number of times. > Holding everything else constant, from job title to industry to location, female and minority applicants were much less likely to report receiving an employee referral than their white male counterparts. More specifically, white women were 12% less likely to receive a referral, men of color were 26% less likely and women of color were 35% less likely. [1] This is not good. Can we agree on that? [0] https://wiki.c2.com/?ViolentAgreement https://wiki.c2.com/?ViolentAgreement [1] https://hbr.org/2018/03/how-to-use-employee-referrals-without-giving-up-workplace-diversity https://hbr.org/2018/03/how-to-use-employee-referrals-withou...
        vanusa 5y ago
        I'm not talking about how all companies operate all of the time, I'm talking about how some companies operate an unfortunate number of times. In between these opposite extremes -- your language clearly indicates that you think this level of what we might call "aggravated bias" (hiring not just someone in your network; but hiring them over a more qualified candidate, presumed to exist and be interested in your opportunity) is commonplace, or something close to it. Such that in your mind, "including referrals in your hiring funnel" == aggravated bias (in the sense above), basically. As to the bias stats you liked to: the findings interesting, to say the least -- if they can be validated. Unfortunately the link to the original Payscale "study" seems to be broken (if we can call it that -- since remember, this is the work of a private company, with products to push).
- pwinnski 5y ago
  So you're defining closeness as not including blood relation or friendship? You are quoting definitions which disagree with your assertion. You used the word incorrectly, and now you're doubling down on that rather than leave the word behind. Better hope good recruiters aren't seeing this! ;)
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    What is my assertion, in your own words?
    - pwinnski 5y ago
      I'm with you on your core assertion, about leveraging personal social networks in hiring leading to reinforcing systemic racism and cultural biases. But in this context, you used "nepotism" to mean "people one knows" and then leaned even further into saying it didn't mean "close relationships" but any relationships. That's just not what that word means, not how it's commonly used either. So that assertion is wrong.
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        I cited two separate definitions, at this point you're disagreeing with not just me, but my citations as well, which makes it hard for me to take what you're saying here and make any changes to what I understand the word to mean. I'm not sure a) why you think you have authority here, or b) why it's such a sticking point to the point that you've continued this conversation for over an entire day. I think at this point the only real option you have is to admit the word must have either evolved since you learned it, or you may have learned it wrong/incompletely. My use of the word "nepotism" was correct here, but more importantly, what the fuuuuuuck does it have to do with my larger point? This is, literally, the definition of pedantry.
        pwinnski 5y ago
        Um, you kept defending your use of the word, rather than abandoning it in the face of multiple people showing you used it incorrectly. I returned to the website today to a new-to-me question from you asking for a definition, so I gave it. You've been antagonistic and personal to me rather than admit that nepotism means family and close friends, not "everyone I know," and it has hurt your core thesis since--again--multiple people read your posted definitions and noted that they did not support your use of the word. It's so weird that you're unwilling to see this, or how it's undermining your primary point, but you do you.
vintermann 5y ago
I once had a former team leader tell me that "I warn you, I practice nepotism", and she did not refer to familiar relations, she just meant that she favored people she knew and liked when looking for people (it included me, I guess, since she "got me in" at a consultancy when I was looking for a job). So at least some people use the word that way.

Closeness isn't a requisite for nepotistic behavior, only undue bias due to personal familiarity. Actually it is; it's how the term is defined.

by vanusa 5y ago

Closeness isn't a requisite for nepotistic behavior, only undue bias due to personal familiarity. Actually it is; it's how the term is defined.

TameAntelope 5y ago

Actually it is not; this is how the term is defined: > nep·o·tism - /ˈnepəˌtizəm/ - noun - the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. [0] > Nepotism is a form of favoritism which is granted to relatives and friends in various fields, including business, politics, entertainment, sports, fitness, religion, and other activities. [1] [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Anepotism https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Anepotism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepotism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepotism

vanusa 5y ago
The practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, That's precisely the point - "close" relations. When we talk about business referrals, it by no means implied that the person being referred is a "friend" in the usual sense of the term (let alone relative). Usually it's just someone you vaguely know (by their work, and/or a chance encounter at a meetup or conference), but don't know too well personally. And just because they come in via a referral does not mean, ipso facto, that "favoritism" is happening and all objectivity is thrown out the window in the evaluation process.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  We may be violently agreeing here; what is bad is the idea that someone can get a job because they know someone else, over a more qualified candidate who doesn't know that person already. We agree this is bad, yes? Our industry is uniquely, as in above-replacement-industry, plagued by a diversity problem, and I'm asserting the practice among those in power of favoring relatives, friends, or even friends of friends over other, more qualified candidates is a contributing factor to that diversity problem. It is not guaranteed that this always happens, but I am asserting it often is (as evinced by the "lack of interview" or "going by reputation only" as reputation is rife with bias), and that is a bad thing.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    We may be violently agreeing here; Violence is completely counter to my way of being - so No. What is bad is the idea that someone can get a job because they know someone else, over a more qualified candidate who doesn't know that person already. We agree this is bad, yes? We keep going in circles - with this idea that person that someone in the company already "knows" (or who came in via a referral anyway) gets the job at the expense not just of a comparably qualified (but not known to the company) candidate, a hypothetical more qualified candidate. You just keep assuming that this what happens when companies act on referrals (and implicitly, that it happens a lot). That's now that I see happening, when referrals are made. But if it's what you want to believe, then it's what you want to believe - and there probably isn't anything I'll be able to say to dissuade you from this belief.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Violent agreement is just a term for when people seem to be disagreeing but actually aren't. [0] If that is completely counter to your way of being, then it's possible your way of being isn't compatible with the concept of constructive argument. And I'm confused about where I said anything about certainty. I'm not talking about how all companies operate all of the time, I'm talking about how some companies operate an unfortunate number of times. > Holding everything else constant, from job title to industry to location, female and minority applicants were much less likely to report receiving an employee referral than their white male counterparts. More specifically, white women were 12% less likely to receive a referral, men of color were 26% less likely and women of color were 35% less likely. [1] This is not good. Can we agree on that? [0] https://wiki.c2.com/?ViolentAgreement https://wiki.c2.com/?ViolentAgreement [1] https://hbr.org/2018/03/how-to-use-employee-referrals-without-giving-up-workplace-diversity https://hbr.org/2018/03/how-to-use-employee-referrals-withou...
      - vanusa 5y ago
        I'm not talking about how all companies operate all of the time, I'm talking about how some companies operate an unfortunate number of times. In between these opposite extremes -- your language clearly indicates that you think this level of what we might call "aggravated bias" (hiring not just someone in your network; but hiring them over a more qualified candidate, presumed to exist and be interested in your opportunity) is commonplace, or something close to it. Such that in your mind, "including referrals in your hiring funnel" == aggravated bias (in the sense above), basically. As to the bias stats you liked to: the findings interesting, to say the least -- if they can be validated. Unfortunately the link to the original Payscale "study" seems to be broken (if we can call it that -- since remember, this is the work of a private company, with products to push).
pwinnski 5y ago
So you're defining closeness as not including blood relation or friendship? You are quoting definitions which disagree with your assertion. You used the word incorrectly, and now you're doubling down on that rather than leave the word behind. Better hope good recruiters aren't seeing this! ;)
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  What is my assertion, in your own words?
  - pwinnski 5y ago
    I'm with you on your core assertion, about leveraging personal social networks in hiring leading to reinforcing systemic racism and cultural biases. But in this context, you used "nepotism" to mean "people one knows" and then leaned even further into saying it didn't mean "close relationships" but any relationships. That's just not what that word means, not how it's commonly used either. So that assertion is wrong.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      I cited two separate definitions, at this point you're disagreeing with not just me, but my citations as well, which makes it hard for me to take what you're saying here and make any changes to what I understand the word to mean. I'm not sure a) why you think you have authority here, or b) why it's such a sticking point to the point that you've continued this conversation for over an entire day. I think at this point the only real option you have is to admit the word must have either evolved since you learned it, or you may have learned it wrong/incompletely. My use of the word "nepotism" was correct here, but more importantly, what the fuuuuuuck does it have to do with my larger point? This is, literally, the definition of pedantry.
      - pwinnski 5y ago
        Um, you kept defending your use of the word, rather than abandoning it in the face of multiple people showing you used it incorrectly. I returned to the website today to a new-to-me question from you asking for a definition, so I gave it. You've been antagonistic and personal to me rather than admit that nepotism means family and close friends, not "everyone I know," and it has hurt your core thesis since--again--multiple people read your posted definitions and noted that they did not support your use of the word. It's so weird that you're unwilling to see this, or how it's undermining your primary point, but you do you.

vintermann 5y ago

I once had a former team leader tell me that "I warn you, I practice nepotism", and she did not refer to familiar relations, she just meant that she favored people she knew and liked when looking for people (it included me, I guess, since she "got me in" at a consultancy when I was looking for a job). So at least some people use the word that way.