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Virtually all humans roll stop signs from time to time. It's safe when done in appropriate circumstances, yet it's illegal. The law is at complete odds with no

Virtually all humans roll stop signs from time to time. It's safe when done in appropriate circumstances, yet it's illegal. The law is at complete odds with normal human behavior, and we've been ignoring the contradiction for, what, decades? The most interesting possible outcome of widespread self-driving vehicles is reconciling the legal fictions on the books with reality as code is unambiguously breaking the laws that aren't based in any semblance of reality.

HWR_14 5y ago
I mean, most speed limits are also ignored safely and commonly.
- mauvehaus 5y ago
  And there are circumstances where it's both reasonable and expected to pass a vehicle over a double yellow line (a slow-moving agricultural vehicle or a horse and buggy, for instance). And there are definitely cases when it's preferable to closely cut a yellow light than risk a collision if you're being tailgated and don't have much faith in the person behind you stopping if you do. At best, the law codifies best practices for the typical case. At worst it's a tool used to selectively target some people over others. See, for example, the concept of "driving while Black".
travisporter 5y ago
> safe when done in appropriate circumstances That's a truism about anything, no?
- stavros 5y ago
  Read as "usually safe".
ceejayoz 5y ago
> The law is at complete odds with normal human behavior, and we've been ignoring the contradiction for, what, decades? No, we've been using the contradictions as pretexts for otherwise illegal traffic stops.
paxys 5y ago
> when done in appropriate circumstances If a law leaves "appropriate circumstances" to the discretion of the public then it is effectively useless. If you get hit by a driver who refused to stop at a stop sign, you're most certainly not going to think that rolling stops are fine.
- epgui 5y ago
  > [...] a law [...] is effectively useless. Indeed! :)
- camjohnson26 5y ago
  Basically every law eventually boils down to someone’s discretion, either the enforcer, the judge, or a jury.
jcims 5y ago
That was something that occurred to me when I first heard about this. It’s probably safer to drive in an expected way than a legal way.
com2kid 5y ago
> Virtually all humans roll stop signs from time to time. Are you in California by chance? Because I rarely see that behavior in Washington state. Dead of night empty roadway people will come to a full stop at a stop sign. > It's safe when done in appropriate circumstances, yet it's illegal. You mean like when a driver thinks they don't see anyone else around? While driving a car with giant A pillars that block a large % of the street and sidewalk from view? Just, like, always stop at stop signs. It isn't that hard.
- DaveExeter 5y ago
  >Just, like, always stop at stop signs. It isn't that hard. I hate people who reflexively come to a full stop at stop signs! And some stop signs, I just completely ignore. Drive right thru as if there was no stop sign at all. I have eye-balls so I don't have to stop at stop-signs.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Not justifying rolling stops, but I can understand why people do it. I've lived in infuriating neighborhoods with a 4 way stop sign at every... single... intersection... You could drive a mile and hit fifteen of them. Cities get a complaint about an intersection and the cheapest way to "calm traffic" is to plop down a 4 way stop sign. You've basically created stop-and-go traffic without the traffic. Most stop signs I encounter in my commute and trips into town could be safely converted into roundabouts while still keeping neighborhood driving speeds low, but since this is the USA, nobody understands how to use roundabouts, so we sit there like idiots stopping every 300 feet of travel.
  - com2kid 5y ago
    There is one intersection in Kirkland WA that needs to be a round about. Every day during rush hour one stop sign is responsible for a 3-5 minute line of traffic. But you know what? Everyone stops at it Even though it is stupid, and there is almost no chance of cross traffic, people stop at it. (It is on 116th ave in Bridal Trails, anyone local reading this knows the stop sign I'm talking about!) So yes, some very stupid stop signs exist. The neighborhood I live in now has a compromise stop signs every block going east/west, but no stop signs going north/south. It works out well enough! Indeed, roundabouts would solve a lot of these problems. One private gated community around here just uses giant speed bumps. Another, somewhat jarring, solution to the problem!
cronix 5y ago
It's also more environmentally friendly as it takes more power (exhaust) to get moving from a complete stop, more brake dust created coming to a complete stop, etc. > The law is at complete odds with normal human behavior > that aren't based in any semblance of reality. Dunno how true it is, but way back when, when I was in driving school, the instructor said the reason for coming to a complete stop was in order to accurately gauge the speed of cross/oncoming traffic, which is not nearly as accurate if you are in motion, in order to know if you can pull out/turn safely.
CalRobert 5y ago
The problem is that judging whether the circumstances are appropriate is nearly impossible from the limited perspective of the driver. You can't see things hidden by A/B/C pillars, you can't see short objects (like children) obstructed by your doors, and too often people using cars forget that things like kids on bikes, motorcycles, pedestrians, etc. exist. This is indeed normal human behaviour, but we've also seen a dramatic increase in drivers killing people with their cars.
bhauer 5y ago
Indeed. Similarly, we may eventually need to contend with the fact that posted speed limits are, in most jurisdictions that I know, at least 5 to 10 MPH lower than the enforced limit. Virtually all human drivers drive some small amount over posted speed limits. If we were to force all autonomous drive systems to always perform full stops and always obey the speed limit, the human drivers mixed among them will lose their minds. At least so far, NHTSA has not said that Tesla and others need to ensure that in autonomous drive modes, the speed limit may not be exceeded.
Eric_WVGG 5y ago
It’s attitudes like this that me bull-ish about the future of self-driving cars. Cars can be programmed to never speed, double-park, or roll through stops (I'm aghast that Tesla even tried this). Loads of drivers seem to think this kind of shit is just fine and normal, and desperately need to be taken off the road. Self-driving car skeptics seem to think that the barrier is "being good at driving." I think the barrier is "being better at driving than most people." That's a low bar.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >Loads of drivers seem to think this kind of shit is just fine and normal, and desperately need to be taken off the road. For every few hundred cars going 65-80 on a 55mph stretch of interstate highway there's maybe a couple going the speed limit. Who is contributing the most danger to the roadway on a per-capita or per vehicle basis? > That's a low bar. You only think that because you mentally bucket people who casually violate the letter of the law when they deem it safe to do so and who's judgement on such matters is roughly in line with everyone else's into the "bad driver" category. The bar is not actually that low.
  - Eric_WVGG 5y ago
micromacrofoot 5y ago
A lot of traffic laws are guidelines until you do something worse, or fit a cop's profile of "suspicious." In the same vein as the old "broken taillight" ruse (the trope is that you get pulled over for no reason and the cop breaks your taillight). Roll through a stop sign during rush hour? in most places you're fine. Roll through a stop sign late at night when bars close? Maybe you'll get pulled over for it and a sobriety check. The laws are rooted in safe ideals, but are applied on a whim based on police bias. Personally I think self-driving cars should err on the side safe ideals (even if they're slightly less practical), and the laws should be applied to human drivers in a more uniform manner. I've had some bad run-ins with police myself (pulled over and searched for having a mirror ornament, pulled over for doing 5 over the limit, etc)... and follow every asinine road rule because of it.
woliveirajr 5y ago
Reminds me of the "Industrial Society and Its Future" manifesto (not that I agree with it or with the author's method).

HWR_14 5y ago

I mean, most speed limits are also ignored safely and commonly.

mauvehaus 5y ago
And there are circumstances where it's both reasonable and expected to pass a vehicle over a double yellow line (a slow-moving agricultural vehicle or a horse and buggy, for instance). And there are definitely cases when it's preferable to closely cut a yellow light than risk a collision if you're being tailgated and don't have much faith in the person behind you stopping if you do. At best, the law codifies best practices for the typical case. At worst it's a tool used to selectively target some people over others. See, for example, the concept of "driving while Black".

travisporter 5y ago

> safe when done in appropriate circumstances That's a truism about anything, no?

stavros 5y ago
Read as "usually safe".

ceejayoz 5y ago

> The law is at complete odds with normal human behavior, and we've been ignoring the contradiction for, what, decades? No, we've been using the contradictions as pretexts for otherwise illegal traffic stops.

paxys 5y ago

> when done in appropriate circumstances If a law leaves "appropriate circumstances" to the discretion of the public then it is effectively useless. If you get hit by a driver who refused to stop at a stop sign, you're most certainly not going to think that rolling stops are fine.

epgui 5y ago
> [...] a law [...] is effectively useless. Indeed! :)
camjohnson26 5y ago
Basically every law eventually boils down to someone’s discretion, either the enforcer, the judge, or a jury.

jcims 5y ago

That was something that occurred to me when I first heard about this. It’s probably safer to drive in an expected way than a legal way.

com2kid 5y ago

> Virtually all humans roll stop signs from time to time. Are you in California by chance? Because I rarely see that behavior in Washington state. Dead of night empty roadway people will come to a full stop at a stop sign. > It's safe when done in appropriate circumstances, yet it's illegal. You mean like when a driver thinks they don't see anyone else around? While driving a car with giant A pillars that block a large % of the street and sidewalk from view? Just, like, always stop at stop signs. It isn't that hard.

DaveExeter 5y ago
>Just, like, always stop at stop signs. It isn't that hard. I hate people who reflexively come to a full stop at stop signs! And some stop signs, I just completely ignore. Drive right thru as if there was no stop sign at all. I have eye-balls so I don't have to stop at stop-signs.
ryandrake 5y ago
Not justifying rolling stops, but I can understand why people do it. I've lived in infuriating neighborhoods with a 4 way stop sign at every... single... intersection... You could drive a mile and hit fifteen of them. Cities get a complaint about an intersection and the cheapest way to "calm traffic" is to plop down a 4 way stop sign. You've basically created stop-and-go traffic without the traffic. Most stop signs I encounter in my commute and trips into town could be safely converted into roundabouts while still keeping neighborhood driving speeds low, but since this is the USA, nobody understands how to use roundabouts, so we sit there like idiots stopping every 300 feet of travel.
- com2kid 5y ago
  There is one intersection in Kirkland WA that needs to be a round about. Every day during rush hour one stop sign is responsible for a 3-5 minute line of traffic. But you know what? Everyone stops at it Even though it is stupid, and there is almost no chance of cross traffic, people stop at it. (It is on 116th ave in Bridal Trails, anyone local reading this knows the stop sign I'm talking about!) So yes, some very stupid stop signs exist. The neighborhood I live in now has a compromise stop signs every block going east/west, but no stop signs going north/south. It works out well enough! Indeed, roundabouts would solve a lot of these problems. One private gated community around here just uses giant speed bumps. Another, somewhat jarring, solution to the problem!

cronix 5y ago

It's also more environmentally friendly as it takes more power (exhaust) to get moving from a complete stop, more brake dust created coming to a complete stop, etc. > The law is at complete odds with normal human behavior > that aren't based in any semblance of reality. Dunno how true it is, but way back when, when I was in driving school, the instructor said the reason for coming to a complete stop was in order to accurately gauge the speed of cross/oncoming traffic, which is not nearly as accurate if you are in motion, in order to know if you can pull out/turn safely.

CalRobert 5y ago

The problem is that judging whether the circumstances are appropriate is nearly impossible from the limited perspective of the driver. You can't see things hidden by A/B/C pillars, you can't see short objects (like children) obstructed by your doors, and too often people using cars forget that things like kids on bikes, motorcycles, pedestrians, etc. exist. This is indeed normal human behaviour, but we've also seen a dramatic increase in drivers killing people with their cars.

bhauer 5y ago

Indeed. Similarly, we may eventually need to contend with the fact that posted speed limits are, in most jurisdictions that I know, at least 5 to 10 MPH lower than the enforced limit. Virtually all human drivers drive some small amount over posted speed limits. If we were to force all autonomous drive systems to always perform full stops and always obey the speed limit, the human drivers mixed among them will lose their minds. At least so far, NHTSA has not said that Tesla and others need to ensure that in autonomous drive modes, the speed limit may not be exceeded.

Eric_WVGG 5y ago

It’s attitudes like this that me bull-ish about the future of self-driving cars. Cars can be programmed to never speed, double-park, or roll through stops (I'm aghast that Tesla even tried this). Loads of drivers seem to think this kind of shit is just fine and normal, and desperately need to be taken off the road. Self-driving car skeptics seem to think that the barrier is "being good at driving." I think the barrier is "being better at driving than most people." That's a low bar.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>Loads of drivers seem to think this kind of shit is just fine and normal, and desperately need to be taken off the road. For every few hundred cars going 65-80 on a 55mph stretch of interstate highway there's maybe a couple going the speed limit. Who is contributing the most danger to the roadway on a per-capita or per vehicle basis? > That's a low bar. You only think that because you mentally bucket people who casually violate the letter of the law when they deem it safe to do so and who's judgement on such matters is roughly in line with everyone else's into the "bad driver" category. The bar is not actually that low.
- Eric_WVGG 5y ago

micromacrofoot 5y ago

A lot of traffic laws are guidelines until you do something worse, or fit a cop's profile of "suspicious." In the same vein as the old "broken taillight" ruse (the trope is that you get pulled over for no reason and the cop breaks your taillight). Roll through a stop sign during rush hour? in most places you're fine. Roll through a stop sign late at night when bars close? Maybe you'll get pulled over for it and a sobriety check. The laws are rooted in safe ideals, but are applied on a whim based on police bias. Personally I think self-driving cars should err on the side safe ideals (even if they're slightly less practical), and the laws should be applied to human drivers in a more uniform manner. I've had some bad run-ins with police myself (pulled over and searched for having a mirror ornament, pulled over for doing 5 over the limit, etc)... and follow every asinine road rule because of it.

woliveirajr 5y ago

Reminds me of the "Industrial Society and Its Future" manifesto (not that I agree with it or with the author's method).