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>This should initiate a conversation into following the spirit of laws vs. authoritarian rigidity of law without nuance. That's why rolling stop laws don't alw

>This should initiate a conversation into following the spirit of laws vs. authoritarian rigidity of law without nuance. That's why rolling stop laws don't always end up with you getting a ticket. I was pulled over a year or two after first getting my license for executing a rolling stop. The cop reminded me what I'd done, recognized that I was a dumb kid and a relatively new driver, told me to cross my heart and promise I'd never do it again, and let me go. Enforcement is circumstantial and nobody's going to follow that rule if they're not aware that they could get in trouble for it. >In law class he gave an email: in some states in the US there are very long stretches of road where you won't see anyone for awhile, and sometimes there are traffic lights on a straight road - with no intersection. He put forward to the question of what do you do if that traffic light is red when you come up to it? There's zero vehicles near you in either direction, there's no intersection to worry about cross-traffic, and so do you stop and wait for the light to go green, or do you go again even though it's red? I think every reasonable person would answer that they would go. E.g. A rolling stop in some circumstances isn't dangerous for anyone; and I also see police doing it all the time. Many such stop lights exist because they provide a safe space to cross the road for pedestrians. In fact there are a few such lights near me in long stretches of road, among woods, that allow people walking through trails in the woods to cross the road. I stop at those lights every single time. Why? Because I don't know if someone has crossed yet. Could be that it's a family trying to cross the street, and they had to go back to the trail to corral a kid that wandered the other way and they'll be crossing the street in a second. Or, it could be a group of people - some of them have crossed, others are shortly behind and will be coming out in a second. The point is that, often, I don't know what is or isn't there. And unless I know, I'm going to stop. >Edit: Lazy people downvote - find something better to do with your time, or some other form of entertainment. Happy now?

loceng 5y ago
> Happy now? Morale has improved, the beatings can stop. You're right, and it's the same with jaywalking - it's usually only enforced or a fine or charge laid if the action causes a collision or harm. In the example I gave there wasn't pedestrian crossing as part of the example, and in it you also stop at the light first. In your scenario it sounds like there are blind spots too, whereas I guess I left out some language, like the road was in a desert with full visibility everywhere. Of course, you need to always fully stop or be rolling slowly enough, say if you're making a right-hand turn at a red light [where legal], so that you can stop quickly enough if you see past the blind spot that traffic is coming.
- jjulius 5y ago
  >... whereas I guess I left out some language, like the road was in a desert with full visibility everywhere. I'd guess that's a speed deterrent. Long stretches of flat, open road with nothing around to crash into are very inviting for people looking to race. Get going fast enough and you risk losing control of your vehicle and crashing into other people, say an oncoming car. Those red lights, assuming I'm understanding your scenario correctly, encourage people to maintain a safer pace of travel. >Of course, you need to always fully stop or be rolling slowly enough, say if you're making a right-hand turn at a red light... ... no. There is no "or be rolling slowly enough". Stop.
  - loceng 5y ago
    > I'd guess that's a speed deterrent. Long stretches of flat, open road with nothing around to crash into are very inviting for people looking to race. Get going fast enough and you risk losing control of your vehicle and crashing into other people, say an oncoming car. Those red lights, assuming I'm understanding your scenario correctly, encourage people to maintain a safer pace of travel. Sure, or perhaps it makes people who maybe zoned out give them an opportunity to see how fast they're going - and slow down, and they get an opportunity to see if they slowed down fast enough to stop at the red light - before reaching the next red light which maybe is in a little town up ahead a bit, so if they didn't stop in time for the first red light then they've kind of been notified to be more careful next time. But the exercise was to ask: if it's 100% safe to go at a red light [once you've stopped at it], with zero potential for anyone getting hurt, do you go through the red light, or do you wait until it turns green? It makes for quite the interesting psychological test seeing how different people answer, similar I suppose to the whole train track scenario - where your train is going to crash - and you have a few options; Will Smith in iRobot has related trauma as well, the robot's AI determined to save him - an adult - over the young girl, even though he was trying to command the robot to save the little girl. > ... no. There is no "or be rolling slowly enough". Stop. If you're at a stop sign or red traffic light, and if it's legal in your jurisdiction to turn right on, you have to start rolling forward - and are allowed to even if there's a blindspot and can't see any traffic coming yet [the road could be clear or not] - so if you're going slowly enough and there's no traffic then you continue, if you all of a sudden can see past the blindspot and there's enough time to safely go then you continue, if there isn't enough time to pull out then you stop.

loceng 5y ago

> Happy now? Morale has improved, the beatings can stop. You're right, and it's the same with jaywalking - it's usually only enforced or a fine or charge laid if the action causes a collision or harm. In the example I gave there wasn't pedestrian crossing as part of the example, and in it you also stop at the light first. In your scenario it sounds like there are blind spots too, whereas I guess I left out some language, like the road was in a desert with full visibility everywhere. Of course, you need to always fully stop or be rolling slowly enough, say if you're making a right-hand turn at a red light [where legal], so that you can stop quickly enough if you see past the blind spot that traffic is coming.

jjulius 5y ago
>... whereas I guess I left out some language, like the road was in a desert with full visibility everywhere. I'd guess that's a speed deterrent. Long stretches of flat, open road with nothing around to crash into are very inviting for people looking to race. Get going fast enough and you risk losing control of your vehicle and crashing into other people, say an oncoming car. Those red lights, assuming I'm understanding your scenario correctly, encourage people to maintain a safer pace of travel. >Of course, you need to always fully stop or be rolling slowly enough, say if you're making a right-hand turn at a red light... ... no. There is no "or be rolling slowly enough". Stop.
- loceng 5y ago
  > I'd guess that's a speed deterrent. Long stretches of flat, open road with nothing around to crash into are very inviting for people looking to race. Get going fast enough and you risk losing control of your vehicle and crashing into other people, say an oncoming car. Those red lights, assuming I'm understanding your scenario correctly, encourage people to maintain a safer pace of travel. Sure, or perhaps it makes people who maybe zoned out give them an opportunity to see how fast they're going - and slow down, and they get an opportunity to see if they slowed down fast enough to stop at the red light - before reaching the next red light which maybe is in a little town up ahead a bit, so if they didn't stop in time for the first red light then they've kind of been notified to be more careful next time. But the exercise was to ask: if it's 100% safe to go at a red light [once you've stopped at it], with zero potential for anyone getting hurt, do you go through the red light, or do you wait until it turns green? It makes for quite the interesting psychological test seeing how different people answer, similar I suppose to the whole train track scenario - where your train is going to crash - and you have a few options; Will Smith in iRobot has related trauma as well, the robot's AI determined to save him - an adult - over the young girl, even though he was trying to command the robot to save the little girl. > ... no. There is no "or be rolling slowly enough". Stop. If you're at a stop sign or red traffic light, and if it's legal in your jurisdiction to turn right on, you have to start rolling forward - and are allowed to even if there's a blindspot and can't see any traffic coming yet [the road could be clear or not] - so if you're going slowly enough and there's no traffic then you continue, if you all of a sudden can see past the blindspot and there's enough time to safely go then you continue, if there isn't enough time to pull out then you stop.