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I've never once see an Atheist imply that Phelps and Lewis should be judged equally, just as I've never even conceived of someone dismissing someone's accomplis

I've never once see an Atheist imply that Phelps and Lewis should be judged equally, just as I've never even conceived of someone dismissing someone's accomplishments purely because of their faith. Likewise, I'd like to thank you for reinforcing the notion that Atheists are angry. As one who feels persecuted, I often do feel angry about it. But to assume that I'm not versed in religious, theological, or philosophical texts is irritating. Have you ever actually engaged these people you refer to, to explore if they have this depth of knowledge you seem to require them to have to have an opinion? Are you equally scathing of the millions that vote to keep me from having rights because their preacher on Sunday that they blindly listen to, tell them I'm a filthy sinner? Ignorance is not unique to any side, and well-versed-ness is not a requirement for having an opinion. And from where I'm sitting, Robertson, Lewis, Falwell, Phelps, the Greeks, the Romans, they all make the same fundamental mistakes in logic as far as I'm concerned. Of course, I'm not going to get riled up about it unless the live half way across town and I have to see them with their signs on my drive to work twice a week. For what it's worth, I don't even find Dawkins to be that terribly reductive. Much of his talks and writings revolve around very real, palpable, tangible and timely issues. He addresses them at high levels and reduces them and disassembles them. Also, I don't understand your first sentence at all, it seems like just another attempt to lump and dismiss atheists. It's all anecdotal, no doubt, but the Atheists I know are FAR, FAR better versed in the Bible than the typical Christians that we come across who want to shout at us, insult us, call us names or inform us of the tortures we'll endure after we perish. Similarly, I'm shocked at the droves of people on my campus that haven't been to church in years, haven't read the Bible, are generally not good people, and can't even enumerate reasons why they cling to their faith, but happily rush out to vote for anti-gay Republicans. We can talk about the sad state of theological discussion in our society, but I see a far less intellectual "default" position in place.

davesims 15y ago
From reading a couple of replies now, I'm thinking that I didn't express myself well. I respect atheists, especially ones that have taken the time to think about the world and their place in it and the nature of truth. Most atheists are engaged with the big questions and that's more than I can say for most. I probably have more in common with the average atheist, in terms of our desire to engage big questions and draw conclusions, than most of my Christian friends on that count. I also realize in my post that I haven't adequately taken into account how persecuted most atheists probably feel. It's a problem of perception on both sides -- both feel attacked and misunderstood. But I can definitely see how an atheist in America might feel marginalized. I respect the atheist if nothing else for the simple fact that they have the integrity to hold to a conviction, the intellectual curiosity to engage the biggest questions and then the courage to stand with that conviction in a society that doesn't tend to hold with such opinions. With such atheists I can have long discussions and good beer. Beer seems to be a recurring theme with me here...
- drivebyacct2 15y ago
  I guess I'm curious for more clarification on your post then. I guess I don't get the point. I feel like it would be summarized, "Lots of people like to loudly be ignorant about their beliefs". I don't disagree with that, but I don't find it uniquely or even tilted towards atheism. Further, I still don't understand the reductive criticism on Dawkins. Again, I find much of his positioning to be directly related or relatable to very palpable issues. Even in his books, he uses real life modern and historical examples and addresses their basis in logic and their societal effects before breaking it down and discussing it in what I might call a reductive fashion. If anything, I feel like you're looking for a philosophical discussion that Dawkins, and I would suspect many Atheists, are flatly uninterested in. (I find myself a little surprised to see such a discussion surrounding Santa Claus. I won't purport to know how the cited individuals would reply to such a simplistic response, but I've yet to have it sufficiently answered and though it may spark a larger discussion, it's simplistic nature is a way for me to express how little initial\fundamental stock I put in the existence of either.) In closing, yes, beer and a good theological discussion sounds nice. Most of the people who were willing to sit down with me simply refer me to a higher authority now though (they tell me that they can't answer my questions and to go ask a Preist or a Preacher, I've already been Catholic once though :P).
  - JanezStupar 15y ago
    To me Richard Dawkins is a bit like Carl Von Clausewitz or Nietzsche. In a sense they all see their respective fields with an astonishing clarity and try to lay it all out in the open. But due to the sheer size and complexity of their work, few in their audience posses necessary sophistication to understand it completely. Thus Dawkins spawned a legion of believers that got everything mixed up and who by applying their teaching literally, become more dogmatic than their target.
    - davesims 15y ago
      I'm glad Dawkins can play that role for you. But for me the chasm between Dawkins and Nietzsche is...vast.
- 15y ago
TheRevoltingX 15y ago
I'm sorry, but you say that you're versed in scripture? Well, clearly you're not. You would know that we are ALL sinners and that Jesus Christ died for our sins. You are not versed in scripture, nor do you have knowledge of what sin is.
- pjscott 15y ago
  It is one of the core beliefs of Christianity that we are all sinners and that all sins are equal in God's eyes -- just any any Christian. But in practice, most tend to treat some people as a lot more sinful than others, and to be looked down upon for that. Hitler, for example, or gay people, or the 9/11 terrorists, or swingers. Scripture does not define typical Christian behavior; let's not conflate the two.
  - TheRevoltingX 15y ago
    Well, since the concept of sin is well defined in the bible it is silly to equate it to what some silly people say it is. >Scripture does not define typical Christian behavior; let's not conflate the two. Exactly, thank you. Blurring this line is exactly what irks me, if you're going to 'talk shit' about Christianity then use scripture. Otherwise, properly define that you're simply arguing against stupid people. Don't say you know scripture, and then use anecdotes to show it. Sin is well defined in the bible, it doesn't matter what people think it is or what it should be. BTW, I'm aware the author didn't make this claim directly, but this notion is what irks me. If you ask any Christian, and indeed they know the nature of the equality of sin, then these 'common' Christians that don't follow scripture and bash people can't exist. If that's the case, are these people you are talking about being Christian, or just being people?

davesims 15y ago

From reading a couple of replies now, I'm thinking that I didn't express myself well. I respect atheists, especially ones that have taken the time to think about the world and their place in it and the nature of truth. Most atheists are engaged with the big questions and that's more than I can say for most. I probably have more in common with the average atheist, in terms of our desire to engage big questions and draw conclusions, than most of my Christian friends on that count. I also realize in my post that I haven't adequately taken into account how persecuted most atheists probably feel. It's a problem of perception on both sides -- both feel attacked and misunderstood. But I can definitely see how an atheist in America might feel marginalized. I respect the atheist if nothing else for the simple fact that they have the integrity to hold to a conviction, the intellectual curiosity to engage the biggest questions and then the courage to stand with that conviction in a society that doesn't tend to hold with such opinions. With such atheists I can have long discussions and good beer. Beer seems to be a recurring theme with me here...

drivebyacct2 15y ago
I guess I'm curious for more clarification on your post then. I guess I don't get the point. I feel like it would be summarized, "Lots of people like to loudly be ignorant about their beliefs". I don't disagree with that, but I don't find it uniquely or even tilted towards atheism. Further, I still don't understand the reductive criticism on Dawkins. Again, I find much of his positioning to be directly related or relatable to very palpable issues. Even in his books, he uses real life modern and historical examples and addresses their basis in logic and their societal effects before breaking it down and discussing it in what I might call a reductive fashion. If anything, I feel like you're looking for a philosophical discussion that Dawkins, and I would suspect many Atheists, are flatly uninterested in. (I find myself a little surprised to see such a discussion surrounding Santa Claus. I won't purport to know how the cited individuals would reply to such a simplistic response, but I've yet to have it sufficiently answered and though it may spark a larger discussion, it's simplistic nature is a way for me to express how little initial\fundamental stock I put in the existence of either.) In closing, yes, beer and a good theological discussion sounds nice. Most of the people who were willing to sit down with me simply refer me to a higher authority now though (they tell me that they can't answer my questions and to go ask a Preist or a Preacher, I've already been Catholic once though :P).
- JanezStupar 15y ago
  To me Richard Dawkins is a bit like Carl Von Clausewitz or Nietzsche. In a sense they all see their respective fields with an astonishing clarity and try to lay it all out in the open. But due to the sheer size and complexity of their work, few in their audience posses necessary sophistication to understand it completely. Thus Dawkins spawned a legion of believers that got everything mixed up and who by applying their teaching literally, become more dogmatic than their target.
  - davesims 15y ago
    I'm glad Dawkins can play that role for you. But for me the chasm between Dawkins and Nietzsche is...vast.
15y ago

TheRevoltingX 15y ago

I'm sorry, but you say that you're versed in scripture? Well, clearly you're not. You would know that we are ALL sinners and that Jesus Christ died for our sins. You are not versed in scripture, nor do you have knowledge of what sin is.

pjscott 15y ago
It is one of the core beliefs of Christianity that we are all sinners and that all sins are equal in God's eyes -- just any any Christian. But in practice, most tend to treat some people as a lot more sinful than others, and to be looked down upon for that. Hitler, for example, or gay people, or the 9/11 terrorists, or swingers. Scripture does not define typical Christian behavior; let's not conflate the two.
- TheRevoltingX 15y ago
  Well, since the concept of sin is well defined in the bible it is silly to equate it to what some silly people say it is. >Scripture does not define typical Christian behavior; let's not conflate the two. Exactly, thank you. Blurring this line is exactly what irks me, if you're going to 'talk shit' about Christianity then use scripture. Otherwise, properly define that you're simply arguing against stupid people. Don't say you know scripture, and then use anecdotes to show it. Sin is well defined in the bible, it doesn't matter what people think it is or what it should be. BTW, I'm aware the author didn't make this claim directly, but this notion is what irks me. If you ask any Christian, and indeed they know the nature of the equality of sin, then these 'common' Christians that don't follow scripture and bash people can't exist. If that's the case, are these people you are talking about being Christian, or just being people?