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> > There Are No C Conferences. Maybe that’s why the C++ committee is now over 10 times the size of the C committee. I have this controversial thought: C peopl

by scoutt 5y ago

> > There Are No C Conferences. Maybe that’s why the C++ committee is now over 10 times the size of the C committee. I have this controversial thought: C people understood one thing before everyone else (including the creators of C++, Rust, and any other language), and is this: “Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Super-bloated languages that keep adding features every month/year are far from perfection. Now bring it on! Note: I love both C and C++. I prefer C because it's simpler (I write firmware for a living). Sometimes I use C++ with simple classes and I might throw in a template or two if I am in a good day. Of course my classes are for my use only: don't try to copy/move them!! I won't chase every little nitpick of deleting and overriding every operator/constructor!! And the further I might go is implementing a Singleton.

pjmlp 5y ago
I guess you haven't kept up to date with ISO C work.
- scoutt 5y ago
  May be, but... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C17_(C_standard_revision) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C17_(C_standard_revision) "C17 addressed defects in C11 without introducing new language features" means a lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2x https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2x Has a few additions compared to C++20 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B20)
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Have fun reading these ones instead of relying on Wikipedia, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30160590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30160590 Also you forgot the endless amount of compiler specific language extensions.
    - scoutt 5y ago
      Let's see what (and how it) lands in C2x. Of course, as any other language, C might be taken over in the future by a new generation and be bloated, too. But so far, it is contained. In any case, nobody can deny the amount of bloat in C++ has no parallel. > Naturally at this point one could ask why not just use C++ instead I might do, in a limited and simpler form, as I said before. Of course I am not developing something like SKIA; just firmware in a limited and constrained environment (not even using std).
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        There is no denial about that, except most languages suffer from similar bloat. When people count the amount of pages on ISO C++, they forget to include the standard library on the process. Which on C's case it includes the expectation that POSIX is also available.
        jstimpfle 5y ago
        This is one example of bending over backwards to claim things that are obviously wrong, no useful discussion to have here.
perryizgr8 5y ago
C++ is great if you forbid the class keyword in your project. It turns into an amazing new-age language with cutting-edge concepts.
- ginko 5y ago
  So just define your classes with struct. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - Koshkin 5y ago
    But then all your privates will be public by default.
    - gpderetta 5y ago
      As I like to put my privates at the bottom of the definition of a class, having to use the class keyword and then having to put a public access specifier immediately after is fairly annoying :).
victorcharlie 5y ago
Hey, do you mind pointing me to some learning material regarding firmware? I have a totally unrelated background (I'm a chemist) although I picked up some coding during my PhD (the usual "science stack": Python/shell scripts). After that I learnt C and fell in love with its simplicity and power and firmware/drivers always seemed like magic to me so I'd like to understand them a little bit better. Thanks and have a great day!
- Koshkin 5y ago
  Not the GP, but to me the only difference between firmware and software is that firmware is often (but not always) "burned" right into a piece of hardware, which is usually a chip that has a microcontroller of some sort inside it. The PC BIOS is also called firmware sometimes - because it is "burned" into the PC itself. A device driver, on the other hand, can be implemented in software or firmware, or, usually these days, as a combination of both. Drivers indeed are magic - since they usually designed to interact with, and to control, physical systems, they must work in real time, and writing a driver requires understanding the system's behavior to a minute detail.

by scoutt 5y ago

pjmlp 5y ago

I guess you haven't kept up to date with ISO C work.

scoutt 5y ago
May be, but... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C17_(C_standard_revision) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C17_(C_standard_revision) "C17 addressed defects in C11 without introducing new language features" means a lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2x https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2x Has a few additions compared to C++20 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B20)
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Have fun reading these ones instead of relying on Wikipedia, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30160590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30160590 Also you forgot the endless amount of compiler specific language extensions.
  - scoutt 5y ago
    Let's see what (and how it) lands in C2x. Of course, as any other language, C might be taken over in the future by a new generation and be bloated, too. But so far, it is contained. In any case, nobody can deny the amount of bloat in C++ has no parallel. > Naturally at this point one could ask why not just use C++ instead I might do, in a limited and simpler form, as I said before. Of course I am not developing something like SKIA; just firmware in a limited and constrained environment (not even using std).
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      There is no denial about that, except most languages suffer from similar bloat. When people count the amount of pages on ISO C++, they forget to include the standard library on the process. Which on C's case it includes the expectation that POSIX is also available.
      - jstimpfle 5y ago
        This is one example of bending over backwards to claim things that are obviously wrong, no useful discussion to have here.

perryizgr8 5y ago

C++ is great if you forbid the class keyword in your project. It turns into an amazing new-age language with cutting-edge concepts.

ginko 5y ago
So just define your classes with struct. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Koshkin 5y ago
  But then all your privates will be public by default.
  - gpderetta 5y ago
    As I like to put my privates at the bottom of the definition of a class, having to use the class keyword and then having to put a public access specifier immediately after is fairly annoying :).

victorcharlie 5y ago

Hey, do you mind pointing me to some learning material regarding firmware? I have a totally unrelated background (I'm a chemist) although I picked up some coding during my PhD (the usual "science stack": Python/shell scripts). After that I learnt C and fell in love with its simplicity and power and firmware/drivers always seemed like magic to me so I'd like to understand them a little bit better. Thanks and have a great day!

Koshkin 5y ago
Not the GP, but to me the only difference between firmware and software is that firmware is often (but not always) "burned" right into a piece of hardware, which is usually a chip that has a microcontroller of some sort inside it. The PC BIOS is also called firmware sometimes - because it is "burned" into the PC itself. A device driver, on the other hand, can be implemented in software or firmware, or, usually these days, as a combination of both. Drivers indeed are magic - since they usually designed to interact with, and to control, physical systems, they must work in real time, and writing a driver requires understanding the system's behavior to a minute detail.