7 ms·

This article is desperately in need of some examples. I can't believe there isn't one.

by beachy 5y ago

paulsutter 5y ago
Imagine papers with conflicting results. One side cites one subset of papers. The other side cites the other subset. Both feel the other are are disingenuous. Both sides are citing true facts (“these papers exist”), both sides are wrong (the data is in fact inconclusive)
metaphor 5y ago
I thought the generalized examples here[1] were objectively adequate. Using real world examples in this context strikes me as dancing into a mine field and a dismissal of the nuanced exercise towards understanding that the author suggests[2]. [1] https://consilienceproject.org/content/images/size/w1000/2022/01/Mislead-with-Facts_Three-Primary-Ways-of-Misleading-with-Facts.jpg https://consilienceproject.org/content/images/size/w1000/202... [2] https://consilienceproject.org/content/images/size/w1000/2022/01/Mislead-with-Facts_Four-Ways-of-Understanding-Facts-1.jpg https://consilienceproject.org/content/images/size/w1000/202...
throwawayarnty 5y ago
One example: people who simply state “women make 82 cents for every dollar a man makes” to imply the advantage of being a man vs a woman. The reality of how this number is calculated (eg averages across professions, even though men and women tend to work different professions, part time vs full time is not taken into account) suggests the conclusions that come from this 82 cents number is more nuanced than the initial statement.
- Ma8ee 5y ago
  And then you can take another step and ask why professions dominated by women in general are less well paid than similar ones dominated by men, and why it is mostly women who reduce their work hours while the kids are small and why not more men do the same.
  - xdennis 5y ago
    Because the jobs are less valuable, not due to who's doing them but due to the market (i.e. all of us) seeing them as less valuable. Teachers and nannies aren't paid a whole lot because they're easily replaceable, not because they're jobs dominated by women. Doctors used to be exclusively men. Have salaries gone down now that women make up a significant percent of the number of doctors?
    - Ma8ee 5y ago
      > Because the jobs are less valuable, not due to who's doing them but due to the market (i.e. all of us) seeing them as less valuable. It is a rather sad and naive view of the value of work if you think that it is decided by market value. My work as a developer has a high market value because what I do is generating revenue for my employer. The work of the teacher who shapes the future of our children or the work of nurse that take care of our dying parents don't generate any revenue, and thus has a lower market value, but I, and I think we as a society should, value it much more. Good teachers and good nannies aren't easier to replace than good carpenters or construction workers. But since many men who are in charge of setting salaries don't understand that they aren't as well paid. > Have salaries gone down now that women make up a significant percent of the number of doctors? Yes. I don't have the time to dig up the sources right now, and I don't remember seeing it specifically about doctors, but in many lines of work the relative salaries have gone down when traditionally male professions have been taken over more and more by women.
      - kareemm 5y ago
        > Good teachers and good nannies aren't easier to replace than good carpenters or construction workers. But since many men who are in charge of setting salaries don't understand that they aren't as well paid. I'm not sure teachers and nannies are good examples. Public school teachers are largely unionized which would eliminate differences in pay between men and women. And many nannies are effectively small business people who set their own rates.
        5y ago
- prometheus76 5y ago
  Overtime is also not taken into account in those calculations. Men tend to work more overtime than women.
  - _0ffh 5y ago
    Men in general value money and status more highly and therefore sacrifice more in their pursuit. An observer who concentrates solely on the monetary outcome sees only half of the picture.
blueflow 5y ago
"The Rainbow has 5 colors"
dang 5y ago
That may be a strategic decision. The minute they provide examples, they start losing anyone in their audience who is pre-committed politically to that example.
golemiprague 5y ago
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
the "FBI crime statistics" meme is a common one.
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  Elaborate

This article is desperately in need of some examples. I can't believe there isn't one.

by beachy 5y ago

This article is desperately in need of some examples. I can't believe there isn't one.

Imagine papers with conflicting results. One side cites one subset of papers. The other side cites the other subset. Both feel the other are are disingenuous. Both sides are citing true facts (“these papers exist”), both sides are wrong (the data is in fact inconclusive)

metaphor 5y ago

I thought the generalized examples here[1] were objectively adequate. Using real world examples in this context strikes me as dancing into a mine field and a dismissal of the nuanced exercise towards understanding that the author suggests[2]. [1] https://consilienceproject.org/content/images/size/w1000/2022/01/Mislead-with-Facts_Three-Primary-Ways-of-Misleading-with-Facts.jpg https://consilienceproject.org/content/images/size/w1000/202... [2] https://consilienceproject.org/content/images/size/w1000/2022/01/Mislead-with-Facts_Four-Ways-of-Understanding-Facts-1.jpg https://consilienceproject.org/content/images/size/w1000/202...

throwawayarnty 5y ago

One example: people who simply state “women make 82 cents for every dollar a man makes” to imply the advantage of being a man vs a woman. The reality of how this number is calculated (eg averages across professions, even though men and women tend to work different professions, part time vs full time is not taken into account) suggests the conclusions that come from this 82 cents number is more nuanced than the initial statement.

Ma8ee 5y ago
And then you can take another step and ask why professions dominated by women in general are less well paid than similar ones dominated by men, and why it is mostly women who reduce their work hours while the kids are small and why not more men do the same.
- xdennis 5y ago
  Because the jobs are less valuable, not due to who's doing them but due to the market (i.e. all of us) seeing them as less valuable. Teachers and nannies aren't paid a whole lot because they're easily replaceable, not because they're jobs dominated by women. Doctors used to be exclusively men. Have salaries gone down now that women make up a significant percent of the number of doctors?
  - Ma8ee 5y ago
    > Because the jobs are less valuable, not due to who's doing them but due to the market (i.e. all of us) seeing them as less valuable. It is a rather sad and naive view of the value of work if you think that it is decided by market value. My work as a developer has a high market value because what I do is generating revenue for my employer. The work of the teacher who shapes the future of our children or the work of nurse that take care of our dying parents don't generate any revenue, and thus has a lower market value, but I, and I think we as a society should, value it much more. Good teachers and good nannies aren't easier to replace than good carpenters or construction workers. But since many men who are in charge of setting salaries don't understand that they aren't as well paid. > Have salaries gone down now that women make up a significant percent of the number of doctors? Yes. I don't have the time to dig up the sources right now, and I don't remember seeing it specifically about doctors, but in many lines of work the relative salaries have gone down when traditionally male professions have been taken over more and more by women.
    - kareemm 5y ago
      > Good teachers and good nannies aren't easier to replace than good carpenters or construction workers. But since many men who are in charge of setting salaries don't understand that they aren't as well paid. I'm not sure teachers and nannies are good examples. Public school teachers are largely unionized which would eliminate differences in pay between men and women. And many nannies are effectively small business people who set their own rates.
      - 5y ago
prometheus76 5y ago
Overtime is also not taken into account in those calculations. Men tend to work more overtime than women.
- _0ffh 5y ago
  Men in general value money and status more highly and therefore sacrifice more in their pursuit. An observer who concentrates solely on the monetary outcome sees only half of the picture.

blueflow 5y ago

"The Rainbow has 5 colors"

dang 5y ago

That may be a strategic decision. The minute they provide examples, they start losing anyone in their audience who is pre-committed politically to that example.

golemiprague 5y ago

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

the "FBI crime statistics" meme is a common one.

defaultprimate 5y ago
Elaborate