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Sadly, this kind of behaviour is on brand when it comes to the UK state. It is less than ten years since Section 5 [1] was reformed to remove the display of “in

by ninjin 5y ago

Sadly, this kind of behaviour is on brand when it comes to the UK state. It is less than ten years since Section 5 [1] was reformed to remove the display of “insulting” words and writing in public as an offence (Rowan Atkinson made an excellent speech on the matter back then [2]). However, the overall mentality and other laws are still very much at large. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_5_of_the_Public_Order_Act_1986 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_5_of_the_Public_Order_... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiqDZlAZygU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiqDZlAZygU While I still do not claim to fully comprehend British culture, there is always an odd undercurrent of authoritarianism whose chill I can feel now and then – it is worth noting that it bridges the political divide. I have talked about this with my British colleagues and heard numerous explanations, but none that I feel satisfactory. At times when I feel particularly dark I joke about this with said colleagues and say: “You say that you went to war with the Germans on behalf of the free world. But at times I wonder: Was it not that they in a way were outdoing you and you were feeling a bit envious?” Now, clearly this is intended to be offensive and not something that I genuinely believe, but like many jokes, it somewhat works because there is some kernel of truth at its core.

lupire 5y ago
You don't see a difference in authoritarianism of British "banning the public wishing of mass death" and Nazi "requiring the public wishing of mass death? "
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  The equivalancy drawn in the joke is part of what makes it funny.
  - blarg1 5y ago
    He's probably a German.
  - tim333 5y ago
    Is it funny? I'm a Brit and I don't really get it. Maybe because my ancestors were German jewish and had to get the hell out. WW2 wasn't really about being envious of the Germans.
mdoms 5y ago
- ninjin 5y ago
  For crying out loud… I thought that “Now, clearly this is intended to be offensive and not something that I genuinely believe…” (emphasis added) would be sufficient to avoid this. Likewise in another response where I am asked: “You don’t see a difference in authoritarianism [between this British behavior and that of the Nazis?]”, clearly I do. The joke – regardless of whether it is to your liking – uses the ingredient of the high degree of pride many British still take in (rightfully) standing up against the Third Reich and defending liberal values; contrasts this using a massively exaggerated satirical equivalence to the failure to stand up for what I believe to be those very same values in the present day. As another poster pointed out, the fact that this is an obvious exaggeration is precisely why it is a joke and not an attempt at a political essay. I am reminded of how at the end of Stewart Lee’s wonderful satirising critique of the culture of the TV show Top Gear, where he faces the camera and explains that, no, he in fact does not wish that Richard Hammond would be dead [1,2]. [1]: https://youtu.be/K7CnMQ4L9Pc?t=752 https://youtu.be/K7CnMQ4L9Pc?t=752 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hammond#Vampire_dragster_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hammond#Vampire_dragst...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
CodeGlitch 5y ago
It differs across the UK. In Scotland things are now far worse: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53526843 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-535... The SNP are trying to be far more authoritarian than the Tory's at this point.
vba616 5y ago
>You say that you went to war with the Germans on behalf of the free world Who said that? They definitely ruled over a lot of the non-free world at the time. India? East Africa? A large part of the world supported the Axis simply because at the time, the British Empire was the relevant empire oppressing them, and by default, anyone who hated the British supported the Germans and/or Japanese. A possibly apocryphal story is that a Brit was trying to explain to an African why it was necessary to fight the Nazis. He said "each country must rule over its own people, the Germans over Germany, the Poles over Poland, the French over France..." and the African said "..." Gandhi was firmly against fighting the Germans and Japanese, and many Indians equated fighting for the Axis with fighting for independence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army "After the war ended, the story of the INA and the Indian Legion was seen as so inflammatory that, fearing mass revolts and uprisings across its empire, the British Government forbade the BBC from broadcasting their story." >But at times I wonder: Was it not that they in a way were outdoing you and you were feeling a bit envious?” Were they? At the outbreak of WWII, the British controlled "25% of the world's population, and of 30% of its land mass". The phrase "odd undercurrent of authoritarian" itself is particularly odd, because what's odd about a country that ruled over one of the largest, if not the largest, empires of all time having an authoritarian streak?
- ninjin 5y ago
  I agree with you, but this has nothing to do with the point I made. There was no claim as to any “true” nature of WW2 or British imperialism. What I stated was that a large chunk current Britons perceive themselves as having stood up to Hitler and defended freedom for all. Whether this is true or not does not matter with respect to either my joke or perplexity over the fact that authoritarianism is present in UK society to a larger degree than I am comfortable with. If anything, your response is in support of what I stated.
tim333 5y ago
I think a lot comes from Benthamite thinking "it is the greatest happiness of the greatest number that is the measure of right and wrong." So stopping mean tweets can be ok if it makes most people happy. The Nazi thing on the other hand wasn't good for happiness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham
- ninjin 5y ago
  This whole conversation is winding down, but I just wanted to thank you for this comment as it brought me a new perspective on the matter. I have for at least a year had an uneasy feeling about Bentham’s utilitarianism, so your response indicates to me that I should consider it in the light of the tyranny of the masses and perhaps I will find some realisations there (personal or societal) if read more and think about it for a little while.

by ninjin 5y ago

lupire 5y ago

You don't see a difference in authoritarianism of British "banning the public wishing of mass death" and Nazi "requiring the public wishing of mass death? "

throwawayboise 5y ago
The equivalancy drawn in the joke is part of what makes it funny.
- blarg1 5y ago
  He's probably a German.
- tim333 5y ago
  Is it funny? I'm a Brit and I don't really get it. Maybe because my ancestors were German jewish and had to get the hell out. WW2 wasn't really about being envious of the Germans.

mdoms 5y ago

ninjin 5y ago
For crying out loud… I thought that “Now, clearly this is intended to be offensive and not something that I genuinely believe…” (emphasis added) would be sufficient to avoid this. Likewise in another response where I am asked: “You don’t see a difference in authoritarianism [between this British behavior and that of the Nazis?]”, clearly I do. The joke – regardless of whether it is to your liking – uses the ingredient of the high degree of pride many British still take in (rightfully) standing up against the Third Reich and defending liberal values; contrasts this using a massively exaggerated satirical equivalence to the failure to stand up for what I believe to be those very same values in the present day. As another poster pointed out, the fact that this is an obvious exaggeration is precisely why it is a joke and not an attempt at a political essay. I am reminded of how at the end of Stewart Lee’s wonderful satirising critique of the culture of the TV show Top Gear, where he faces the camera and explains that, no, he in fact does not wish that Richard Hammond would be dead [1,2]. [1]: https://youtu.be/K7CnMQ4L9Pc?t=752 https://youtu.be/K7CnMQ4L9Pc?t=752 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hammond#Vampire_dragster_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hammond#Vampire_dragst...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

CodeGlitch 5y ago

It differs across the UK. In Scotland things are now far worse: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53526843 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-535... The SNP are trying to be far more authoritarian than the Tory's at this point.

vba616 5y ago

>You say that you went to war with the Germans on behalf of the free world Who said that? They definitely ruled over a lot of the non-free world at the time. India? East Africa? A large part of the world supported the Axis simply because at the time, the British Empire was the relevant empire oppressing them, and by default, anyone who hated the British supported the Germans and/or Japanese. A possibly apocryphal story is that a Brit was trying to explain to an African why it was necessary to fight the Nazis. He said "each country must rule over its own people, the Germans over Germany, the Poles over Poland, the French over France..." and the African said "..." Gandhi was firmly against fighting the Germans and Japanese, and many Indians equated fighting for the Axis with fighting for independence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army "After the war ended, the story of the INA and the Indian Legion was seen as so inflammatory that, fearing mass revolts and uprisings across its empire, the British Government forbade the BBC from broadcasting their story." >But at times I wonder: Was it not that they in a way were outdoing you and you were feeling a bit envious?” Were they? At the outbreak of WWII, the British controlled "25% of the world's population, and of 30% of its land mass". The phrase "odd undercurrent of authoritarian" itself is particularly odd, because what's odd about a country that ruled over one of the largest, if not the largest, empires of all time having an authoritarian streak?

ninjin 5y ago
I agree with you, but this has nothing to do with the point I made. There was no claim as to any “true” nature of WW2 or British imperialism. What I stated was that a large chunk current Britons perceive themselves as having stood up to Hitler and defended freedom for all. Whether this is true or not does not matter with respect to either my joke or perplexity over the fact that authoritarianism is present in UK society to a larger degree than I am comfortable with. If anything, your response is in support of what I stated.

tim333 5y ago

I think a lot comes from Benthamite thinking "it is the greatest happiness of the greatest number that is the measure of right and wrong." So stopping mean tweets can be ok if it makes most people happy. The Nazi thing on the other hand wasn't good for happiness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham

ninjin 5y ago
This whole conversation is winding down, but I just wanted to thank you for this comment as it brought me a new perspective on the matter. I have for at least a year had an uneasy feeling about Bentham’s utilitarianism, so your response indicates to me that I should consider it in the light of the tyranny of the masses and perhaps I will find some realisations there (personal or societal) if read more and think about it for a little while.