4 ms·

>My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved By this

>My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved By this same argument, old car engines without microprocessors would function just as efficiently as new ones with microprocessors, yet the evidence is that modern ones are more efficient in just about every way. Microprocessors allow much more sophisticated sensor inputs and tuning of systems, including dishwashers. >designers start to wedge them in just because they can Designers don't wedge in anything adding cost without benefit, otherwise competing cheaper models move consumers to other products.

EricE 5y ago
lol - few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors. Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations. And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.
- ChrisLomont 5y ago
  >Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations. Red herring. No one claimed all situations except you. >And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly. I didn't claim they're the same. I illustrated, correctly, that a microprocessor allows better analysis of sensor data than oldschool analog systems could. If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used. Claiming designers simply put them in designs solely because they can is more than a bit silly, however. >few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors I don't think you're in tune with electronics designers. I think all of them I know (a dozen+) all design systems with and without MCUs as needed. It's easier to design without, mostly since those are usually quite simple systems. When you can get a MCU for under a dime (and very powerful ones under $1), it's simply stupid to design complex systems with anything other than a MCU. Have you designed, professionally for commercial products, either MCU based or old analog systems?
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used." This is a circular argument - if there was a better method for banks to access customer credit worthiness, they would be using that methodology. Wait, what do you mean global economy collapsed because of subprime loans? God created the best possible world, because if better world would be possible then god would create that world instead. What, BigBrain, you think you can suggest an improvement to God's design and millions of years of evolution? You want separate holes to eating and drinking so that a million people don't choke to death every year? With that logic no criticism of the existing system can be made, you don't even have to engage with veracity of any of the claims made by the poster and can reject his argument wholesale. This poster is not interested in cost savings for the manufacturer, he is interested in claims about MCU making dishwasher more efficient. With engines we have recorded MPG improvements. What improvements have materialised for diahwasher?
    - ChrisLomont 5y ago
      >What improvements have materialised for diahwasher? It takes a simple google search if you were interested. A huge one is the cost savings by allowing energy efficient motors that tune across a wide range of current/temperature/torque as an appliance runs [1]. This is decades old, and requires complex feedback and algorithms extremely costly to implement without a microprocessor. It also allows motors to use less materials, which given fluctuating raw material costs, reduces price volatility. So: energy savings, less materials, lower costs. This is such a big deal that companies like STMicroelectronics make STM32 CPUs explicitly designed for this, for dishwashers, and they are sold as such [2]. The same control ideas are used to make the heater coils more efficient, again using algorithms implemented in MCUs. This allows top performing devices to use less energy. From 1993 to 2003 advances reduced avg energy use per cycle from 2.6kWh and 10 gallons of water to 1.8 kWh/cycle (30% less energy) and 6 gallons of water (40% less water) [3]. In 2020 avg is about 4.2 gallons per cycle [4]. In 2022 it's 2.36 gal [5]. Annual energy usage for 2022 dishwashers is around 199 kWh/yr [5]. From the above papers in 2008 it was around 325 kWh/yr. This took < 5 minutes to find using google. [1] https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/motion-systems/article/21191199/energy-efficient-motor-control-for-appliances https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/motion-systems... [2] https://www.st.com/en/applications/home-and-professional-appliances/dishwasher.html https://www.st.com/en/applications/home-and-professional-app... [3] https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_123.pdf https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_1... [4] https://prudentreviews.com/how-much-water-does-a-dishwasher-use/ https://prudentreviews.com/how-much-water-does-a-dishwasher-... [5] https://www.energystar.gov/most-efficient/me-certified-dishwashers/results?is_most_efficient_filter=Most+Efficient https://www.energystar.gov/most-efficient/me-certified-dishw...

EricE 5y ago

lol - few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors. Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations. And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly.

ChrisLomont 5y ago
>Doesn't mean they are still the best answer for all situations. Red herring. No one claimed all situations except you. >And comparing a car to a dishwasher is more than a bit silly. I didn't claim they're the same. I illustrated, correctly, that a microprocessor allows better analysis of sensor data than oldschool analog systems could. If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used. Claiming designers simply put them in designs solely because they can is more than a bit silly, however. >few designers have the electronics backgrounds to design circuits without microprocessors I don't think you're in tune with electronics designers. I think all of them I know (a dozen+) all design systems with and without MCUs as needed. It's easier to design without, mostly since those are usually quite simple systems. When you can get a MCU for under a dime (and very powerful ones under $1), it's simply stupid to design complex systems with anything other than a MCU. Have you designed, professionally for commercial products, either MCU based or old analog systems?
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "If old analog systems provided the functionality or cost savings a microprocessor could, then those would be used." This is a circular argument - if there was a better method for banks to access customer credit worthiness, they would be using that methodology. Wait, what do you mean global economy collapsed because of subprime loans? God created the best possible world, because if better world would be possible then god would create that world instead. What, BigBrain, you think you can suggest an improvement to God's design and millions of years of evolution? You want separate holes to eating and drinking so that a million people don't choke to death every year? With that logic no criticism of the existing system can be made, you don't even have to engage with veracity of any of the claims made by the poster and can reject his argument wholesale. This poster is not interested in cost savings for the manufacturer, he is interested in claims about MCU making dishwasher more efficient. With engines we have recorded MPG improvements. What improvements have materialised for diahwasher?
  - ChrisLomont 5y ago
    >What improvements have materialised for diahwasher? It takes a simple google search if you were interested. A huge one is the cost savings by allowing energy efficient motors that tune across a wide range of current/temperature/torque as an appliance runs [1]. This is decades old, and requires complex feedback and algorithms extremely costly to implement without a microprocessor. It also allows motors to use less materials, which given fluctuating raw material costs, reduces price volatility. So: energy savings, less materials, lower costs. This is such a big deal that companies like STMicroelectronics make STM32 CPUs explicitly designed for this, for dishwashers, and they are sold as such [2]. The same control ideas are used to make the heater coils more efficient, again using algorithms implemented in MCUs. This allows top performing devices to use less energy. From 1993 to 2003 advances reduced avg energy use per cycle from 2.6kWh and 10 gallons of water to 1.8 kWh/cycle (30% less energy) and 6 gallons of water (40% less water) [3]. In 2020 avg is about 4.2 gallons per cycle [4]. In 2022 it's 2.36 gal [5]. Annual energy usage for 2022 dishwashers is around 199 kWh/yr [5]. From the above papers in 2008 it was around 325 kWh/yr. This took < 5 minutes to find using google. [1] https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/motion-systems/article/21191199/energy-efficient-motor-control-for-appliances https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/motion-systems... [2] https://www.st.com/en/applications/home-and-professional-appliances/dishwasher.html https://www.st.com/en/applications/home-and-professional-app... [3] https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_123.pdf https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_1... [4] https://prudentreviews.com/how-much-water-does-a-dishwasher-use/ https://prudentreviews.com/how-much-water-does-a-dishwasher-... [5] https://www.energystar.gov/most-efficient/me-certified-dishwashers/results?is_most_efficient_filter=Most+Efficient https://www.energystar.gov/most-efficient/me-certified-dishw...