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Manufacturing an electric car is also worse for the environment than a gas powered one. Lithium and colbolt mining is not easy. Similarly, electric cars in are

Manufacturing an electric car is also worse for the environment than a gas powered one. Lithium and colbolt mining is not easy. Similarly, electric cars in areas were power generation primarily comes from fossil fuels are worse for the environment currently. At some point in the future they might all be green energy, but most places around the world that is not the case yet. There is a lot of nuance to these problems. Electric cars will be very important in the future for emissions saving, but currently are in the negative.

natch 5y ago
>Electric cars … emissions … currently are in the negative. No. This is a common myth pushed by the legacy auto and oil industries. The emissions savings cross over after around two years. Read the Tesla impact report.
- georgyo 5y ago
  This is simply impossible. There is energy loss at every stage. Burning fuel to create electricity is not 100% Transfering that energy over power lines has loss Converting that energy from high voltage to house hold voltage has loss. Charging a battery has loss Discharging a battery has loss Converting electric energy into a motor has loss. Running a combustion engine in a car has less loss than the above. If that energy comes from wind, solar, or even nuclear; then even with that loss you are releasing less CO2. However if you are burning oil in both places, then the compounding energy losses matter a lot. > Read the Tesla impact report. Reading an electric car companies statement and taking that as absolute truth is the same as reading about "clean oil".
  - acdha 5y ago
    Burning fuel hits the Carnot limit around 35%, though, so you have a hefty margin for that transmission loss, and don't forget the entire global shipping system which brings that fuel to you. The other big factor to consider is the much greater complexity: internal combustion engines are complicated. All of those parts have a cost to build, assemble, and maintain — one of the biggest reasons why EVs end up cheaper to own is simply that you're not taking on all of that.
    - georgyo 5y ago
      > don't forget the entire global shipping system which brings that fuel to you. You have missed my point entirely. If your local electric generation is the same source as your car. You have not saved anything. To reiterate again, if your local electric generation is green then things are going to be better for the environment. But if your local power plant is coal then an electric car is worse. Your car is indirectly burning coal to move. And the delivery and storage of that coal generated electric has lots of losses on the journey.
      - acdha 5y ago
        It's still not that simple. Internal-combustion engines are extremely inefficient (and pollute more since they're harder to monitor and not reliably professionally maintained) and there's a lot more waste involved at every point of that process. You also have factors like regenerative braking to further complicate the comparison. The other big factor to think about is the relative emissions profile of the shipping system which brings that fuel to you specifically where you live. It's true electric power has transmissions loses but those very considerably as a function of distance and it doesn't require the same power to be shipped multiple times. Shipping oil in a tanker with high-pollution marine Diesel engines is going to be different than piping it to a refinery or having a modern freight train haul either coal or oil, refineries aren't exactly low-pollution, and gas also requires a considerable amount of pollution shipping it to thousands of fuel stations (with electric power, at least a lot of the environmental impact is focused in one location).
  - natch 5y ago
    > Reading an electric car companies statement and taking that as absolute truth But you’re willing to take oil industry propaganda as absolute truth and that’s ok, right?
titzer 5y ago
> Similarly, electric cars in areas were power generation primarily comes from fossil fuels are worse for the environment currently. This is false. Internal combustion engines are far less efficient than centralized coal or natural gas plants and are far worse in terms of both CO2 and particulate emissions overall. You can read a news article reporting on an MIT study here: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-are-lower-than-gasoline-cars-experts-say.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-ar...

natch 5y ago

>Electric cars … emissions … currently are in the negative. No. This is a common myth pushed by the legacy auto and oil industries. The emissions savings cross over after around two years. Read the Tesla impact report.

georgyo 5y ago
This is simply impossible. There is energy loss at every stage. Burning fuel to create electricity is not 100% Transfering that energy over power lines has loss Converting that energy from high voltage to house hold voltage has loss. Charging a battery has loss Discharging a battery has loss Converting electric energy into a motor has loss. Running a combustion engine in a car has less loss than the above. If that energy comes from wind, solar, or even nuclear; then even with that loss you are releasing less CO2. However if you are burning oil in both places, then the compounding energy losses matter a lot. > Read the Tesla impact report. Reading an electric car companies statement and taking that as absolute truth is the same as reading about "clean oil".
- acdha 5y ago
  Burning fuel hits the Carnot limit around 35%, though, so you have a hefty margin for that transmission loss, and don't forget the entire global shipping system which brings that fuel to you. The other big factor to consider is the much greater complexity: internal combustion engines are complicated. All of those parts have a cost to build, assemble, and maintain — one of the biggest reasons why EVs end up cheaper to own is simply that you're not taking on all of that.
  - georgyo 5y ago
    > don't forget the entire global shipping system which brings that fuel to you. You have missed my point entirely. If your local electric generation is the same source as your car. You have not saved anything. To reiterate again, if your local electric generation is green then things are going to be better for the environment. But if your local power plant is coal then an electric car is worse. Your car is indirectly burning coal to move. And the delivery and storage of that coal generated electric has lots of losses on the journey.
    - acdha 5y ago
      It's still not that simple. Internal-combustion engines are extremely inefficient (and pollute more since they're harder to monitor and not reliably professionally maintained) and there's a lot more waste involved at every point of that process. You also have factors like regenerative braking to further complicate the comparison. The other big factor to think about is the relative emissions profile of the shipping system which brings that fuel to you specifically where you live. It's true electric power has transmissions loses but those very considerably as a function of distance and it doesn't require the same power to be shipped multiple times. Shipping oil in a tanker with high-pollution marine Diesel engines is going to be different than piping it to a refinery or having a modern freight train haul either coal or oil, refineries aren't exactly low-pollution, and gas also requires a considerable amount of pollution shipping it to thousands of fuel stations (with electric power, at least a lot of the environmental impact is focused in one location).
- natch 5y ago
  > Reading an electric car companies statement and taking that as absolute truth But you’re willing to take oil industry propaganda as absolute truth and that’s ok, right?

titzer 5y ago

> Similarly, electric cars in areas were power generation primarily comes from fossil fuels are worse for the environment currently. This is false. Internal combustion engines are far less efficient than centralized coal or natural gas plants and are far worse in terms of both CO2 and particulate emissions overall. You can read a news article reporting on an MIT study here: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-are-lower-than-gasoline-cars-experts-say.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-ar...