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Not sure how the environment would be affected by electric car use. Because all driverless cars are electric so far. They strangely talk around this in the arti

Not sure how the environment would be affected by electric car use. Because all driverless cars are electric so far. They strangely talk around this in the article, without mentioning this fundamental issue. I think the whole article is clickbait.

thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
Electric cars still give of noise pollution & brake dust while taking up a disproportionate amount of space, time and money.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Perhaps. I was thinking of real damage to the ecosystem, not 'its ugly for people' kind of eco-theatre issues. And if those were real issues, they are also much mitigated by electric vehicles. Again, its a non-issue looking for relevance in my opinion.
  - thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
    You are part of the ecosystem & should probably avoid inhaling carcinogenic materials.
    - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
      Again with the breathless hype. Electric cars often use regenerative braking. For every old-style car replaced by an electric car, that is reduced. Not increased.
  - ahoy 5y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4608916/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4608916/ Your opinion isn't in agreement with the research. And before you come tell us that electric cars are quieter (they are, for the occupants), the great majority of automobile noise is from friction between the tires and the road.
- twox2 5y ago
  Funny thing is the "engine noise" in electric cars is purely artificial.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    At slow speeds gas cars are very quiet. Most noise from a car is wind and tire noise. Of course as cars age parts wear out and start making more noise. Some of those noises are common with electric, some are not.
    - acdha 5y ago
      Quieter, but far from quiet — anyone who walks or bikes can hear a slow-moving ICE car from considerably further away than an EV.
  - thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
    I live next to a road and the tyre noise is far worse than the engines.
- natch 5y ago
  Electric cars use regenerative braking, so actual brake usage is negligible. And they take up the same amount of space as comparable ICE vehicles (those that are able to go point to point), if not less.
  - thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
    To be fair, the premise is that they lead to cars being used more
    - natch 5y ago
      The premise is that the self driving, not them being electric, leads to them being used more. But you singled out electric cars as disproportionately taking up more space than other point to point transportation solutions, for some reason. Oh and time and money… on the money point, if you look at the total cost of ownership, a $25,000 Camry costs more than a $35,000 Tesla, so I'd say that money point is open for debate. As for time, also open for debate. I presume you're referring to the time it takes to charge, which is getting faster all the time and usually takes place whole the owner is sleeping. If the vast majority of auto trips are in self driving cars, the charging time will not figure in as a factor in the experience of using a car. It hardly factors in now even. On long road trips, just stop for a quick bathroom break. I spoke to a Model Y owner who says he drives from the Bay Area to LA with one stop for charging, 9 minutes. Hardly a big deal. My own experience is similar, although my last trip there was before we had faster V3 charging stations available. I'd suggest learning more about EVs before hardening your opinions.
  - aurizon 5y ago
    Brake usage and tire wear are linked. People that start hard also tend to stop hard - 'twas ever thus. That said, high G regenerative brakes can approach this. The older eddy current brake forces approach zero as speed approaches zero - I am not sure if Tesla style regenerative brakes have any braking left as you get to zero or if they default to friction as needed, as I expect.
ahoy 5y ago
Automobiles require a lot of raw materials and energy to produce. Roads require materials & energy to maintain. They also take up a LOT of space and slice up the natural world in a way that wrecks ecosystems. Personal autos as the default method of transportation requires sprawly, inefficient land use. When every destination is build to accomodate the car, every errand comes to require the car. This is a bad thing, even if your car isn't directly burning gasoline.
throwaway22032 5y ago
They affect the environment in as much as literally anything we do affects the environment. Building roads everywhere in and of itself is a pretty dramatic change to our natural habitat. Whether that's a positive or not is I think an undecidable problem.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Wouldn't it have been interesting if the article had made any mention of that? It's an obvious question, I agree. That's why I dismiss the article as pseudo-scientific nonsense. They've barely scratched the surface of the issue.
georgyo 5y ago
Manufacturing an electric car is also worse for the environment than a gas powered one. Lithium and colbolt mining is not easy. Similarly, electric cars in areas were power generation primarily comes from fossil fuels are worse for the environment currently. At some point in the future they might all be green energy, but most places around the world that is not the case yet. There is a lot of nuance to these problems. Electric cars will be very important in the future for emissions saving, but currently are in the negative.
- natch 5y ago
  >Electric cars … emissions … currently are in the negative. No. This is a common myth pushed by the legacy auto and oil industries. The emissions savings cross over after around two years. Read the Tesla impact report.
  - georgyo 5y ago
    This is simply impossible. There is energy loss at every stage. Burning fuel to create electricity is not 100% Transfering that energy over power lines has loss Converting that energy from high voltage to house hold voltage has loss. Charging a battery has loss Discharging a battery has loss Converting electric energy into a motor has loss. Running a combustion engine in a car has less loss than the above. If that energy comes from wind, solar, or even nuclear; then even with that loss you are releasing less CO2. However if you are burning oil in both places, then the compounding energy losses matter a lot. > Read the Tesla impact report. Reading an electric car companies statement and taking that as absolute truth is the same as reading about "clean oil".
    - acdha 5y ago
      Burning fuel hits the Carnot limit around 35%, though, so you have a hefty margin for that transmission loss, and don't forget the entire global shipping system which brings that fuel to you. The other big factor to consider is the much greater complexity: internal combustion engines are complicated. All of those parts have a cost to build, assemble, and maintain — one of the biggest reasons why EVs end up cheaper to own is simply that you're not taking on all of that.
bluGill 5y ago
There is no reason driver-less cars have to be electric just because current ones are. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that if/when they come out it they will be most popular in non-electric cars. That is trucks (of all sizes) that need to operate all day, and thus the range of electric is an issue. Take a driver-less truck and it doesn't need to worry about the DOT time limit of drivers and so it can cover a lot of road in 24 hours. Stop only for fuel- full service fueling is easy for a truck stop to offer, and only takes about 10-20 minutes per day vs several hours over the course of a day for electric. For getting cars around a city electric makes sense. For longer highway trips it is questionable for cars (I know people do it, but they spend a lot more time recharging). OTOH, if electric is enough cheaper maybe trucking companies will be willing to have their loads take longer. I'm guessing a mix, cargo that needs to be there fast will run diesel fuel, less time sensitive cargo will run electric (but trains still compete well on cost for this)
bagacrap 5y ago
waymo's driverless cars in Arizona are hybrid Chrysler Pacificas. Electric cars still produce greenhouse gases since our grid is not 100% renewable yet. Brake dust and asphalt also contribute to local air pollution. I have already noticed in my own household that an electric car has reduced bicycle usage because it's perceived as less polluting than an ICE car, so for certain borderline trips where we might have previously opted for bicycles we opt for the e car.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Interestingly, riding a bicycle has higher greenhouse impact than a car. Because, you see, the human body requires more high-quality food and that has the biggest footprint of any human activity. It's complicated. There's always more nuance than we want to admit. All those insisting its somehow simple because they've figured out one factor (see other comments in this thread) are always being naieve.
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    Gonna need a citation on that one. My sources say driving (ice) is 13x as bad as cycling. Electric cars are much better but still worse than cycling and create far greater impact that's not captured by ghg metrics. https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-environmental-impact/#:~:text=Using%20the%20same%20estimate%20for,to%20provide%20the%20extra%20food https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-enviro....

thrwyoilarticle 5y ago

Electric cars still give of noise pollution & brake dust while taking up a disproportionate amount of space, time and money.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Perhaps. I was thinking of real damage to the ecosystem, not 'its ugly for people' kind of eco-theatre issues. And if those were real issues, they are also much mitigated by electric vehicles. Again, its a non-issue looking for relevance in my opinion.
- thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
  You are part of the ecosystem & should probably avoid inhaling carcinogenic materials.
  - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
    Again with the breathless hype. Electric cars often use regenerative braking. For every old-style car replaced by an electric car, that is reduced. Not increased.
- ahoy 5y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4608916/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4608916/ Your opinion isn't in agreement with the research. And before you come tell us that electric cars are quieter (they are, for the occupants), the great majority of automobile noise is from friction between the tires and the road.
twox2 5y ago
Funny thing is the "engine noise" in electric cars is purely artificial.
- bluGill 5y ago
  At slow speeds gas cars are very quiet. Most noise from a car is wind and tire noise. Of course as cars age parts wear out and start making more noise. Some of those noises are common with electric, some are not.
  - acdha 5y ago
    Quieter, but far from quiet — anyone who walks or bikes can hear a slow-moving ICE car from considerably further away than an EV.
- thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
  I live next to a road and the tyre noise is far worse than the engines.
natch 5y ago
Electric cars use regenerative braking, so actual brake usage is negligible. And they take up the same amount of space as comparable ICE vehicles (those that are able to go point to point), if not less.
- thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
  To be fair, the premise is that they lead to cars being used more
  - natch 5y ago
    The premise is that the self driving, not them being electric, leads to them being used more. But you singled out electric cars as disproportionately taking up more space than other point to point transportation solutions, for some reason. Oh and time and money… on the money point, if you look at the total cost of ownership, a $25,000 Camry costs more than a $35,000 Tesla, so I'd say that money point is open for debate. As for time, also open for debate. I presume you're referring to the time it takes to charge, which is getting faster all the time and usually takes place whole the owner is sleeping. If the vast majority of auto trips are in self driving cars, the charging time will not figure in as a factor in the experience of using a car. It hardly factors in now even. On long road trips, just stop for a quick bathroom break. I spoke to a Model Y owner who says he drives from the Bay Area to LA with one stop for charging, 9 minutes. Hardly a big deal. My own experience is similar, although my last trip there was before we had faster V3 charging stations available. I'd suggest learning more about EVs before hardening your opinions.
- aurizon 5y ago
  Brake usage and tire wear are linked. People that start hard also tend to stop hard - 'twas ever thus. That said, high G regenerative brakes can approach this. The older eddy current brake forces approach zero as speed approaches zero - I am not sure if Tesla style regenerative brakes have any braking left as you get to zero or if they default to friction as needed, as I expect.

ahoy 5y ago

Automobiles require a lot of raw materials and energy to produce. Roads require materials & energy to maintain. They also take up a LOT of space and slice up the natural world in a way that wrecks ecosystems. Personal autos as the default method of transportation requires sprawly, inefficient land use. When every destination is build to accomodate the car, every errand comes to require the car. This is a bad thing, even if your car isn't directly burning gasoline.

throwaway22032 5y ago

They affect the environment in as much as literally anything we do affects the environment. Building roads everywhere in and of itself is a pretty dramatic change to our natural habitat. Whether that's a positive or not is I think an undecidable problem.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Wouldn't it have been interesting if the article had made any mention of that? It's an obvious question, I agree. That's why I dismiss the article as pseudo-scientific nonsense. They've barely scratched the surface of the issue.

georgyo 5y ago

Manufacturing an electric car is also worse for the environment than a gas powered one. Lithium and colbolt mining is not easy. Similarly, electric cars in areas were power generation primarily comes from fossil fuels are worse for the environment currently. At some point in the future they might all be green energy, but most places around the world that is not the case yet. There is a lot of nuance to these problems. Electric cars will be very important in the future for emissions saving, but currently are in the negative.

natch 5y ago
>Electric cars … emissions … currently are in the negative. No. This is a common myth pushed by the legacy auto and oil industries. The emissions savings cross over after around two years. Read the Tesla impact report.
- georgyo 5y ago
  This is simply impossible. There is energy loss at every stage. Burning fuel to create electricity is not 100% Transfering that energy over power lines has loss Converting that energy from high voltage to house hold voltage has loss. Charging a battery has loss Discharging a battery has loss Converting electric energy into a motor has loss. Running a combustion engine in a car has less loss than the above. If that energy comes from wind, solar, or even nuclear; then even with that loss you are releasing less CO2. However if you are burning oil in both places, then the compounding energy losses matter a lot. > Read the Tesla impact report. Reading an electric car companies statement and taking that as absolute truth is the same as reading about "clean oil".
  - acdha 5y ago
    Burning fuel hits the Carnot limit around 35%, though, so you have a hefty margin for that transmission loss, and don't forget the entire global shipping system which brings that fuel to you. The other big factor to consider is the much greater complexity: internal combustion engines are complicated. All of those parts have a cost to build, assemble, and maintain — one of the biggest reasons why EVs end up cheaper to own is simply that you're not taking on all of that.

bluGill 5y ago

There is no reason driver-less cars have to be electric just because current ones are. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that if/when they come out it they will be most popular in non-electric cars. That is trucks (of all sizes) that need to operate all day, and thus the range of electric is an issue. Take a driver-less truck and it doesn't need to worry about the DOT time limit of drivers and so it can cover a lot of road in 24 hours. Stop only for fuel- full service fueling is easy for a truck stop to offer, and only takes about 10-20 minutes per day vs several hours over the course of a day for electric. For getting cars around a city electric makes sense. For longer highway trips it is questionable for cars (I know people do it, but they spend a lot more time recharging). OTOH, if electric is enough cheaper maybe trucking companies will be willing to have their loads take longer. I'm guessing a mix, cargo that needs to be there fast will run diesel fuel, less time sensitive cargo will run electric (but trains still compete well on cost for this)

bagacrap 5y ago

waymo's driverless cars in Arizona are hybrid Chrysler Pacificas. Electric cars still produce greenhouse gases since our grid is not 100% renewable yet. Brake dust and asphalt also contribute to local air pollution. I have already noticed in my own household that an electric car has reduced bicycle usage because it's perceived as less polluting than an ICE car, so for certain borderline trips where we might have previously opted for bicycles we opt for the e car.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Interestingly, riding a bicycle has higher greenhouse impact than a car. Because, you see, the human body requires more high-quality food and that has the biggest footprint of any human activity. It's complicated. There's always more nuance than we want to admit. All those insisting its somehow simple because they've figured out one factor (see other comments in this thread) are always being naieve.
- bagacrap 5y ago
  Gonna need a citation on that one. My sources say driving (ice) is 13x as bad as cycling. Electric cars are much better but still worse than cycling and create far greater impact that's not captured by ghg metrics. https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-environmental-impact/#:~:text=Using%20the%20same%20estimate%20for,to%20provide%20the%20extra%20food https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-enviro....