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No software is perfect when shipped. Most dishwashers have had updatable firmware for at least a decade, it just normally required a technician connecting to it

by eli 5y ago

No software is perfect when shipped. Most dishwashers have had updatable firmware for at least a decade, it just normally required a technician connecting to it with a cable.

tremon 5y ago
No software is perfect when shipped Why not? Or rather, why do we accept this as the norm? A dishwasher isn't that complex, it should be possible to prove the firmware error-free.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  >it should be possible to prove the firmware error-free perhaps they tried, but got stuck on the bit where they tried to figure out if it halts or not.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    This is probably a joke, but tbe halting problem is way overused and doesn't apply in situations where a non-Turing-complete computer is running a known (not arbitrary) program.
    - alasdair_ 5y ago
      Yes, definitely a joke :)
- cube00 5y ago
  It can be cheaper to do things in software so in the past you may have been able to tell the water inlet "fill machine" now you have to watch a water level sensor to control a dumb solenoid valve.
- count 5y ago
  I think you radically underestimate how complex a modern, eco-friendly, low-water usage dishwasher is.
  - tremon 5y ago
    I don't think I do, care to elaborate? From what I can see, there's only two types of processes running inside a dishwasher: - control loops. These can (and must) be fully articulated during the design phase, can be accurately modeled using a Mealy FSM, and can be coded and verified with 100% coverage. - input processing. These take input from various sensors inside the machine, clamp and/or process the measurements, and pass on the data to some control system. The processes can be designed to be completely stateless (or maybe with hysteresis), which means that the only verification they need is that they always output valid data, even when confronted with spurious inputs. Since it's a feed-forward process and the inputs are bounded, 100% coverage is again possible. The only other system is the UI, and its only job is to provide valid configuration data to the master control process. As long as that part is extensively tested, the rest of the UI can crash and reboot at any time, and it won't affect the operation of the fully-tested control process.
- nmstoker 5y ago
  And the UX should be a lot better on various white goods too: simple, intuitive and unobtrusive. I love my Miele dishwasher (not WiFi enabled!) but my Zanusi washer/dryer is utterly terrible in this respect. Despite plenty of great physical abilities of the washer/dryer, it's almost ruined by a useless UX that obsessively locks one out of all sorts of perfectly legitimate transitions, meaning one has to frequently turn it off and back on to force the change of activity, adding frustration for something that could easily be handled if only they'd not crippled the device and made you wait while you cycle it.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  The wifi isn't there for the firmware, it's there for the wifi functionality (Don't ask why it needs wifi functoinality, I can't answer). But once you do have wifi functionality so you have wifi hardware, then the thing needs patching and upgrades too. Maybe some server address has changed, maybe a security fix, etc. And obviously if you have wifi hardware, it's the easy way to upgrade the software. So the question I think isn't "Why does the firmware need to be updated at all"? It likely wouldn't, if the firmware just made the machine clean dishes. The question one should ask is, why does it have network features at all? What possible use case can exist?
  - heleninboodler 5y ago
    Precisely. The reason it needs a firmware upgrade is that the manufacturer made the choice to make it so needlessly complicated that it ... needs a firmware upgrade.
- eli 5y ago
  Do you often create provably error free software? I'd love to hear more about it. A quick google suggests the updates mostly tweak rinse times and temperature settings, presumably based on data that wasn't available before the model shipped.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  > A dishwasher isn't that complex There's a good chance you're underestimating what a modern dishwasher does. They're fairly complex machines.
heleninboodler 5y ago
I've owned a handful of dishwashers over the past 20 years and not once has one ever needed a firmware update (or stopped working, for that matter). What is so complicated about this device that it might need a firmware update? You can probably enumerate every possible state of this device across all possible inputs in an hour. What's that, they have wifi and TCP stacks and probably "apps" now? Oh, I think I see the problem.
TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
Is domestic appliance history littered with terrifying tales of disastrous show-stopper bugs?

by eli 5y ago

No software is perfect when shipped. Most dishwashers have had updatable firmware for at least a decade, it just normally required a technician connecting to it with a cable.

tremon 5y ago

No software is perfect when shipped Why not? Or rather, why do we accept this as the norm? A dishwasher isn't that complex, it should be possible to prove the firmware error-free.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
alasdair_ 5y ago
>it should be possible to prove the firmware error-free perhaps they tried, but got stuck on the bit where they tried to figure out if it halts or not.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  This is probably a joke, but tbe halting problem is way overused and doesn't apply in situations where a non-Turing-complete computer is running a known (not arbitrary) program.
  - alasdair_ 5y ago
    Yes, definitely a joke :)
cube00 5y ago
It can be cheaper to do things in software so in the past you may have been able to tell the water inlet "fill machine" now you have to watch a water level sensor to control a dumb solenoid valve.
count 5y ago
I think you radically underestimate how complex a modern, eco-friendly, low-water usage dishwasher is.
- tremon 5y ago
  I don't think I do, care to elaborate? From what I can see, there's only two types of processes running inside a dishwasher: - control loops. These can (and must) be fully articulated during the design phase, can be accurately modeled using a Mealy FSM, and can be coded and verified with 100% coverage. - input processing. These take input from various sensors inside the machine, clamp and/or process the measurements, and pass on the data to some control system. The processes can be designed to be completely stateless (or maybe with hysteresis), which means that the only verification they need is that they always output valid data, even when confronted with spurious inputs. Since it's a feed-forward process and the inputs are bounded, 100% coverage is again possible. The only other system is the UI, and its only job is to provide valid configuration data to the master control process. As long as that part is extensively tested, the rest of the UI can crash and reboot at any time, and it won't affect the operation of the fully-tested control process.
nmstoker 5y ago
And the UX should be a lot better on various white goods too: simple, intuitive and unobtrusive. I love my Miele dishwasher (not WiFi enabled!) but my Zanusi washer/dryer is utterly terrible in this respect. Despite plenty of great physical abilities of the washer/dryer, it's almost ruined by a useless UX that obsessively locks one out of all sorts of perfectly legitimate transitions, meaning one has to frequently turn it off and back on to force the change of activity, adding frustration for something that could easily be handled if only they'd not crippled the device and made you wait while you cycle it.
alkonaut 5y ago
The wifi isn't there for the firmware, it's there for the wifi functionality (Don't ask why it needs wifi functoinality, I can't answer). But once you do have wifi functionality so you have wifi hardware, then the thing needs patching and upgrades too. Maybe some server address has changed, maybe a security fix, etc. And obviously if you have wifi hardware, it's the easy way to upgrade the software. So the question I think isn't "Why does the firmware need to be updated at all"? It likely wouldn't, if the firmware just made the machine clean dishes. The question one should ask is, why does it have network features at all? What possible use case can exist?
- heleninboodler 5y ago
  Precisely. The reason it needs a firmware upgrade is that the manufacturer made the choice to make it so needlessly complicated that it ... needs a firmware upgrade.
eli 5y ago
Do you often create provably error free software? I'd love to hear more about it. A quick google suggests the updates mostly tweak rinse times and temperature settings, presumably based on data that wasn't available before the model shipped.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
> A dishwasher isn't that complex There's a good chance you're underestimating what a modern dishwasher does. They're fairly complex machines.

heleninboodler 5y ago

I've owned a handful of dishwashers over the past 20 years and not once has one ever needed a firmware update (or stopped working, for that matter). What is so complicated about this device that it might need a firmware update? You can probably enumerate every possible state of this device across all possible inputs in an hour. What's that, they have wifi and TCP stacks and probably "apps" now? Oh, I think I see the problem.

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago

Is domestic appliance history littered with terrifying tales of disastrous show-stopper bugs?