4 ms·

Why doesn't someone start a project to crowd-source the reviewing of these patents? There are 150k patents issued in the US every year, which works out as some

by swombat 15y ago

Why doesn't someone start a project to crowd-source the reviewing of these patents? There are 150k patents issued in the US every year, which works out as some 410 a day. For a small company, that'd be a gargantuan task. Let's say half of these are software patents. That's 200 a day. All you need is about, what, 1400 programmers to volunteer a few hours every week to review the 1400 relevant patents and flag them up for "wait a minute, wtf". If those are then rejected, it will make spurious patent filing a costly and pointless endeavour. If the patent office isn't reviewing stuff, it sounds like we have to take that into our own hands. 1400 programmers for a few hours a week doesn't sound that impossible. Presumably the EFF could help on the legal side. Or am I missing something fundamental?

brodney 15y ago
That is an awesome idea. It would require some kind of infrastructure change though. From the FAQ: http://appft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/help/helpfaq.html#what_information http://appft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/help/helpfaq.html#what_i... Does your database include data on pending patent applications? The database only includes data on Published Applications in accordance with the 18 month pre-grant publication rules. Pending patent applications where the applicat has elected to not publish prior to grant remain confidential. Still though, I'd love to be a part of that kind of overhaul if there were some other way to get pending patent applications.
- swombat 15y ago
  But I thought that was the law they just passed - applications can be repealed up to 9 months after publication?
  - brodney 15y ago
    Oh, so the patents to search and crowd-review would be public. So crawl the search database and have those new results for review. Looks like another group is doing this in conjunction with the USPTO http://peertopatent.org/ http://peertopatent.org/. I guess you'd have to have some way of bringing the concerns to the USPTO for review, a relationship with them. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to keep the patent review comments around, that way if someone found themselves in a lawsuit they would have a starting point for defense.
tptacek 15y ago
Because, not to put too fine a point on it, programmers suck at evaluating patents. Patent language is pure, uncut crystal nerdbait. If you don't know how patent claims language works (and why would you?), most patents will appear ludicrous --- and that's assuming your programmer patent reviewers even know the difference between claims and background material. Incidentally, reviewing patents prior to their issue isn't necessarily a win for defenders. I remember reading an analysis showing that defenders stand a better chance invalidating a patent in court than during the patent process. The crowdsourced review process could just end up helping patentholders by providing a first wave of claims strengthening. It would be far more feasible to fight and win the battle to abolish software and business method patents.
- brlewis 15y ago
  I don't know that it's possible to abolish software patents. The Supreme Court tried, and were overruled by a lower court. Then those lower court precedents were invalidated, yet software patents are still not abolished. The US legal system is baffling.
  - anamax 15y ago
    > The Supreme Court tried, and were overruled by a lower court. Umm, no. Lower courts can not overrrule the US Supreme Court. (The Supreme Court can overrule on some issue and remand. The lower court may then rule as it did before based on different issues, but that's not the same as the lower court overruling the supremes.) > Then those lower court precedents were invalidated, yet software patents are still not abolished. Invalidated by whom? (And then there's the question of exactly what was done.) > The US legal system is baffling. It's a lot less confusing if you don't rely on the media to figure out what's going on.
    - brlewis 15y ago
      See my reply to anigbrowl.
      - 15y ago
greggman 15y ago
ANAL but AFAIK the sad thing is, if you are infringing a patent the responsibility is less if you didn't knowingly infringe. That means as a programmer YOU SHOULDN'T READ PATENTS! :-(

by swombat 15y ago

brodney 15y ago

That is an awesome idea. It would require some kind of infrastructure change though. From the FAQ: http://appft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/help/helpfaq.html#what_information http://appft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/help/helpfaq.html#what_i... Does your database include data on pending patent applications? The database only includes data on Published Applications in accordance with the 18 month pre-grant publication rules. Pending patent applications where the applicat has elected to not publish prior to grant remain confidential. Still though, I'd love to be a part of that kind of overhaul if there were some other way to get pending patent applications.

swombat 15y ago
But I thought that was the law they just passed - applications can be repealed up to 9 months after publication?
- brodney 15y ago
  Oh, so the patents to search and crowd-review would be public. So crawl the search database and have those new results for review. Looks like another group is doing this in conjunction with the USPTO http://peertopatent.org/ http://peertopatent.org/. I guess you'd have to have some way of bringing the concerns to the USPTO for review, a relationship with them. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to keep the patent review comments around, that way if someone found themselves in a lawsuit they would have a starting point for defense.

tptacek 15y ago

Because, not to put too fine a point on it, programmers suck at evaluating patents. Patent language is pure, uncut crystal nerdbait. If you don't know how patent claims language works (and why would you?), most patents will appear ludicrous --- and that's assuming your programmer patent reviewers even know the difference between claims and background material. Incidentally, reviewing patents prior to their issue isn't necessarily a win for defenders. I remember reading an analysis showing that defenders stand a better chance invalidating a patent in court than during the patent process. The crowdsourced review process could just end up helping patentholders by providing a first wave of claims strengthening. It would be far more feasible to fight and win the battle to abolish software and business method patents.

brlewis 15y ago
I don't know that it's possible to abolish software patents. The Supreme Court tried, and were overruled by a lower court. Then those lower court precedents were invalidated, yet software patents are still not abolished. The US legal system is baffling.
- anamax 15y ago
  > The Supreme Court tried, and were overruled by a lower court. Umm, no. Lower courts can not overrrule the US Supreme Court. (The Supreme Court can overrule on some issue and remand. The lower court may then rule as it did before based on different issues, but that's not the same as the lower court overruling the supremes.) > Then those lower court precedents were invalidated, yet software patents are still not abolished. Invalidated by whom? (And then there's the question of exactly what was done.) > The US legal system is baffling. It's a lot less confusing if you don't rely on the media to figure out what's going on.
  - brlewis 15y ago
    See my reply to anigbrowl.
    - 15y ago

greggman 15y ago

ANAL but AFAIK the sad thing is, if you are infringing a patent the responsibility is less if you didn't knowingly infringe. That means as a programmer YOU SHOULDN'T READ PATENTS! :-(