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The US salaries force you to go in more competitive markets though and use your engineers better, because your costs are higher. Salaries in France have been 1/

The US salaries force you to go in more competitive markets though and use your engineers better, because your costs are higher. Salaries in France have been 1/3 of US salaries forever, and yet people don't outsource to French engineers, more like French engineers move to the US.

colechristensen 5y ago
If you outsourced to French engineers you would have to accommodate all of their rights and work styles which don’t exist so much in “developing economies”. A French engineer probably would not be online at 6am and 11pm on the same day to attend meetings and solve problems for their American managers. Eastern European, African, or SE Asian engineers would though.
nemo44x 5y ago
I’ve hired French engineers in France and they’ve done great work. Hard workers too. But the impression France has is probably a turn off for many. There are other problems too like it taking 3 months for a new French hire to start. Getting rid of them is extremely difficult as well. There are lots of additional taxes you have to pay the French government too. There’s just so much risk in hiring there that you’re better off going elsewhere with more modern employment law for skilled, high demand workers. Don’t remind me of the monthly paperwork we have to send the government to assure them the French employee isn’t working too much and is taking vacation. An absolute joke. The French government doesn’t make French engineers very attractive unfortunately.
- marvin 5y ago
  Haha, modern employment law :D You'd cause hilarity if you used that expression anywhere in the Scandinavian public discourse, or at least the Norwegian. You'd get tomatoes thrown at you and no one would listen to a single word. Not that I necessarily disagree with you or miss your point, but this is a very strong ideological divide. It's not about modern vs. archaic unless you posit that employment law that protects employees is such a detriment to an economy's effectiveness that it's effectively obsolete. Maybe at some point it will be a question of what economies actually manage to get things done and thrive and those who don't, but that's the kind of long-term, almost geopolitical shift that happens over decades at the least. E.g. no one who wants a position of power would advocate for a pure planned economy today, rather than a market economy. I sort of doubt that employee protections are such a millstone around the neck that they will go the same way, but who knows. It's an interesting question as you see a tendency of economies with less protections and higher salary luring away lots of really high performers.
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    What I mean by that is how worker protection laws from the Industrial Age and which apply to hourly wage employees are applied to professional workers that have autonomy and other attributes that make them very different from hourly workers. The USA has a concept of an “exempt” and “nonexempt” worker and a series of questions that determine this status. In general, hourly workers (nonexempt) get many protections encoded into law that professionals don’t. And professionals don't want them except for a very small minority of oddballs that want to unionize. So in essence, applying the same set of outdated rules to everyone. It even makes it hard to compete with colleagues for promotions if your hours are limited. Of course the French engineers I had lied to the government about hours worked as they wanted to maximize bonuses, stock grants, and promotions.
    - BigRedDog1669 5y ago
      The legal protections on hourly workers aren't enforced in the US or are skirted around by making hourly employees contractors. Professionals would like some of the protections but only if they are actually enforced.
      - nemo44x 5y ago
        The law defines what a contractor is vs employee. However it can be ambiguous in some cases, especially modern “gig employee” work. Existing boxes don’t fit well. We need new law for this class of worker that wants freedom to choose hours, platforms (like a contractor) but has employer set rates and tasks (like an employee) where there are certain protections beyond a 1099 but also allow these businesses to work, as well as the workers having freedom.

colechristensen 5y ago

If you outsourced to French engineers you would have to accommodate all of their rights and work styles which don’t exist so much in “developing economies”. A French engineer probably would not be online at 6am and 11pm on the same day to attend meetings and solve problems for their American managers. Eastern European, African, or SE Asian engineers would though.

nemo44x 5y ago

I’ve hired French engineers in France and they’ve done great work. Hard workers too. But the impression France has is probably a turn off for many. There are other problems too like it taking 3 months for a new French hire to start. Getting rid of them is extremely difficult as well. There are lots of additional taxes you have to pay the French government too. There’s just so much risk in hiring there that you’re better off going elsewhere with more modern employment law for skilled, high demand workers. Don’t remind me of the monthly paperwork we have to send the government to assure them the French employee isn’t working too much and is taking vacation. An absolute joke. The French government doesn’t make French engineers very attractive unfortunately.

marvin 5y ago
Haha, modern employment law :D You'd cause hilarity if you used that expression anywhere in the Scandinavian public discourse, or at least the Norwegian. You'd get tomatoes thrown at you and no one would listen to a single word. Not that I necessarily disagree with you or miss your point, but this is a very strong ideological divide. It's not about modern vs. archaic unless you posit that employment law that protects employees is such a detriment to an economy's effectiveness that it's effectively obsolete. Maybe at some point it will be a question of what economies actually manage to get things done and thrive and those who don't, but that's the kind of long-term, almost geopolitical shift that happens over decades at the least. E.g. no one who wants a position of power would advocate for a pure planned economy today, rather than a market economy. I sort of doubt that employee protections are such a millstone around the neck that they will go the same way, but who knows. It's an interesting question as you see a tendency of economies with less protections and higher salary luring away lots of really high performers.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  What I mean by that is how worker protection laws from the Industrial Age and which apply to hourly wage employees are applied to professional workers that have autonomy and other attributes that make them very different from hourly workers. The USA has a concept of an “exempt” and “nonexempt” worker and a series of questions that determine this status. In general, hourly workers (nonexempt) get many protections encoded into law that professionals don’t. And professionals don't want them except for a very small minority of oddballs that want to unionize. So in essence, applying the same set of outdated rules to everyone. It even makes it hard to compete with colleagues for promotions if your hours are limited. Of course the French engineers I had lied to the government about hours worked as they wanted to maximize bonuses, stock grants, and promotions.
  - BigRedDog1669 5y ago
    The legal protections on hourly workers aren't enforced in the US or are skirted around by making hourly employees contractors. Professionals would like some of the protections but only if they are actually enforced.
    - nemo44x 5y ago
      The law defines what a contractor is vs employee. However it can be ambiguous in some cases, especially modern “gig employee” work. Existing boxes don’t fit well. We need new law for this class of worker that wants freedom to choose hours, platforms (like a contractor) but has employer set rates and tasks (like an employee) where there are certain protections beyond a 1099 but also allow these businesses to work, as well as the workers having freedom.