6 ms·

In the right hands and with the right practice, cursive is beautiful and a work of art.

happytoexplain 5y ago
Yes, skilled penmanship and calligraphy is wonderful. But in my personal life, the majority of times I encounter cursive, I can not even read the handwriting, which is, to put it lightly, bad.
- toast0 5y ago
  I'm equally skilled at illegible writing in block letters or cursive, thanks. My third grade teacher thought I'd turn out ok, because I'd have a secretary. Sadly, secretaries were out of fashion by the time I graduated college.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    I'm not sure if they fell out of fashion, or because people don't want to pay reasonable rates for them anymore.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  I find it interesting that I only ever hear that kind of complaint from Americans. Here in Europe, cursive/script is the basic way you learn writing, you automatically transition to something other later in life ... and we have zero hate for either variant. As for lack of legibility: I would guess US teachers not enforcing good style in preschool and elementary school contribute to that.
  - dmix 5y ago
    I can't remember the last time I wrote anything long form without a keyboard. Is that still a thing enough people do to have strong opinions about this?
    - b112 5y ago
      Then the zombies happened, and your message to the front couldn't be read, we fell to the hordes because of your lack of skill at cursive thank you the end.
      - iso1631 5y ago
        If I want something to be read I will write it in block letters at a perfectly reasonable speed
        b112 5y ago
        Truthfully, there is a reason for cursive. Not lifting the pen is a big time save, and cursive is designed to be written without that. EG, F doesn't require a pen lift pause to make the lower bar, in cursive. The way the letters are written are also for maximal speed, and of course, you don't have to lift pen between letters. Any skilled cursive writer will tell you, it is many times faster to write legibly in cursive over block letters. Do we need to learn it any more? Well, I'd say not for the speed benefits. But discounting the speed benefits, acting as if they are a lie, is silly. From my side, I see a lot of people complaining about leaning "dumb things" in public school, in these responses. Wow. Totally don't get the point of it. And of course if we removed what everyone on this thread complained about, in the public school curriculum, well, there'd be nothing to teach! Because everyone likes different things. Which is part of what public school is supposed to be about. Teach the basics, while seeing what you excel in, what interests you. You know what cursive teaches, outside of itself? Fine finger control. Brain to finger control mapping. It is an entirely different skill than keyboard pecking. And while you are learning it, you are still learning grammar, learning to craft thought to speech, and so on. There is no loss here.
  - iso1631 5y ago
    https://www.tes.com/magazine/teaching-learning/general/do-we-really-need-joined-handwriting-schools https://www.tes.com/magazine/teaching-learning/general/do-we... Someone defending this outdatd practice despite "the tide turning" against it. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41927258 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41927258 Quoting slow children who can't read by the age of five somehow benefit, and rather than testing what children know we should punish them for not having outdated skills > In the same way, bad handwriting leads to poorer test scores, according to a study by the Carnegie Foundation. The same thoughts and ideas expressed "in a less legible version of a paper" tended to be scored more harshly. This form of writing belongs in a museum curation degree, not in primary schools
    - DocTomoe 5y ago
      From your second link: > It tested students by asking them to take notes from a lecture, using either a laptop or a pen and paper, and then tested their recall on both facts and deeper conceptual questions. > > Essentially, the study found that students taking long-form notes on pen and paper tended to process the information on a deeper level. And that's what we (should) send kids to school for.
      - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
        And that's what we (should) send kids to school for. Is that what we expect out of 6-year-olds, though? Probably not. We expect elementary kids to play and learn basic concepts of things and about the world around them. There is a clear limit to how "deep" a 7-year-old is going to be simply because of maturity and lack of knowledge. We expect more in later schooling years - and that is what your quote refers to. Older children, listening to a lecture. It doesn't mention specifically that this was cursive, either: They were comparing it to typing. And we don't want to force it, either: Later in that same article, it mentions, "typing may help significantly increase exam grades, according to the British Dyslexia Association. And those with physical impairments have long used technology to record their thoughts." Pretty much, writing is a tool that might help you learn assuming you have a neurotypical brain, and even then there are likely other tools you can employ instead.
iso1210 5y ago
And the rest of the time it's illegible scrawl and has no place in basic education. Even [0], the US declaration of independence, is horrendous to read compared to this 8 year old girl's handwriting. https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-declaration-of-independence-in-congress-july-6145873/ https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-declaration-of-independenc...?
- retrac 5y ago
  The chancery/round hand style used in the Declaration of Independence is not a style of cursive much used in the last ~150 years. So it's potentially quite difficult without some practice. A major part of why we teach (or taught) writing cursive is because it also helps teach you to read cursive. You may not need to write much, but until recently you would encounter written cursive all the time. In my experience it's still common enough. It'd be awkward to be unable to read the New Year's cards from my older relatives.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  It is, in essence, a different dialect of writing. It is not illegible, you just don’t know how to read it. Deposit yourself in Edinburgh, Appalachia, or rural Minnesota and you’ll have various levels of difficulty understanding how people speak, is their speech wrong or is your knowledge of their language lacking?
- Someone 5y ago
  Apart from the low resolution of that scan, I find that easy to read.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    The hi res version sibling posted at Wikipedia is very readable and very beautiful.
- pcrh 5y ago
  That is perfectly legible. Many modern fonts are less legible than that. I am curious about the opposition to cursive script that some people demonstrate, mostly in the US. In Europe cursive script is the norm; block letter writing by an adult is considered a mark of poor education.
derbOac 5y ago
I feel sort of neutral about it. I always felt like it took me more time so I stopped using it. But with others I don't have much preference one way or another. I guess I prefer non-cursive? But some of it is very beautiful. There are a lot of children in my extended family, and at some point I noticed they were very confused by cursive, and saw it as a curiosity, almost like there was a secret alphabet adults used to use. When I asked around about it, I found out they were no longer being taught it, and then found articles about how it was disappearing from curricula. It's mostly interesting to me because it was such a big part of my writing education, and my teachers were so adamant about it, and it was so common. So it's strange to me to see it just disappear.
bdowling 5y ago
> In the right hands and with the right practice Also the right kind of pen. Cursive can be beautiful with a nib pen or some fountain pens, but it tends to be ugly with a ballpoint pen.

Yes, skilled penmanship and calligraphy is wonderful. But in my personal life, the majority of times I encounter cursive, I can not even read the handwriting, which is, to put it lightly, bad.

toast0 5y ago
I'm equally skilled at illegible writing in block letters or cursive, thanks. My third grade teacher thought I'd turn out ok, because I'd have a secretary. Sadly, secretaries were out of fashion by the time I graduated college.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  I'm not sure if they fell out of fashion, or because people don't want to pay reasonable rates for them anymore.
DocTomoe 5y ago
I find it interesting that I only ever hear that kind of complaint from Americans. Here in Europe, cursive/script is the basic way you learn writing, you automatically transition to something other later in life ... and we have zero hate for either variant. As for lack of legibility: I would guess US teachers not enforcing good style in preschool and elementary school contribute to that.
- dmix 5y ago
  I can't remember the last time I wrote anything long form without a keyboard. Is that still a thing enough people do to have strong opinions about this?
  - b112 5y ago
    Then the zombies happened, and your message to the front couldn't be read, we fell to the hordes because of your lack of skill at cursive thank you the end.
    - iso1631 5y ago
      If I want something to be read I will write it in block letters at a perfectly reasonable speed
      - b112 5y ago
        Truthfully, there is a reason for cursive. Not lifting the pen is a big time save, and cursive is designed to be written without that. EG, F doesn't require a pen lift pause to make the lower bar, in cursive. The way the letters are written are also for maximal speed, and of course, you don't have to lift pen between letters. Any skilled cursive writer will tell you, it is many times faster to write legibly in cursive over block letters. Do we need to learn it any more? Well, I'd say not for the speed benefits. But discounting the speed benefits, acting as if they are a lie, is silly. From my side, I see a lot of people complaining about leaning "dumb things" in public school, in these responses. Wow. Totally don't get the point of it. And of course if we removed what everyone on this thread complained about, in the public school curriculum, well, there'd be nothing to teach! Because everyone likes different things. Which is part of what public school is supposed to be about. Teach the basics, while seeing what you excel in, what interests you. You know what cursive teaches, outside of itself? Fine finger control. Brain to finger control mapping. It is an entirely different skill than keyboard pecking. And while you are learning it, you are still learning grammar, learning to craft thought to speech, and so on. There is no loss here.
- iso1631 5y ago
  https://www.tes.com/magazine/teaching-learning/general/do-we-really-need-joined-handwriting-schools https://www.tes.com/magazine/teaching-learning/general/do-we... Someone defending this outdatd practice despite "the tide turning" against it. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41927258 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41927258 Quoting slow children who can't read by the age of five somehow benefit, and rather than testing what children know we should punish them for not having outdated skills > In the same way, bad handwriting leads to poorer test scores, according to a study by the Carnegie Foundation. The same thoughts and ideas expressed "in a less legible version of a paper" tended to be scored more harshly. This form of writing belongs in a museum curation degree, not in primary schools
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    From your second link: > It tested students by asking them to take notes from a lecture, using either a laptop or a pen and paper, and then tested their recall on both facts and deeper conceptual questions. > > Essentially, the study found that students taking long-form notes on pen and paper tended to process the information on a deeper level. And that's what we (should) send kids to school for.
    - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
      And that's what we (should) send kids to school for. Is that what we expect out of 6-year-olds, though? Probably not. We expect elementary kids to play and learn basic concepts of things and about the world around them. There is a clear limit to how "deep" a 7-year-old is going to be simply because of maturity and lack of knowledge. We expect more in later schooling years - and that is what your quote refers to. Older children, listening to a lecture. It doesn't mention specifically that this was cursive, either: They were comparing it to typing. And we don't want to force it, either: Later in that same article, it mentions, "typing may help significantly increase exam grades, according to the British Dyslexia Association. And those with physical impairments have long used technology to record their thoughts." Pretty much, writing is a tool that might help you learn assuming you have a neurotypical brain, and even then there are likely other tools you can employ instead.

iso1210 5y ago

And the rest of the time it's illegible scrawl and has no place in basic education. Even [0], the US declaration of independence, is horrendous to read compared to this 8 year old girl's handwriting. https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-declaration-of-independence-in-congress-july-6145873/ https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-declaration-of-independenc...?

retrac 5y ago
The chancery/round hand style used in the Declaration of Independence is not a style of cursive much used in the last ~150 years. So it's potentially quite difficult without some practice. A major part of why we teach (or taught) writing cursive is because it also helps teach you to read cursive. You may not need to write much, but until recently you would encounter written cursive all the time. In my experience it's still common enough. It'd be awkward to be unable to read the New Year's cards from my older relatives.
colechristensen 5y ago
It is, in essence, a different dialect of writing. It is not illegible, you just don’t know how to read it. Deposit yourself in Edinburgh, Appalachia, or rural Minnesota and you’ll have various levels of difficulty understanding how people speak, is their speech wrong or is your knowledge of their language lacking?
Someone 5y ago
Apart from the low resolution of that scan, I find that easy to read.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  The hi res version sibling posted at Wikipedia is very readable and very beautiful.
pcrh 5y ago
That is perfectly legible. Many modern fonts are less legible than that. I am curious about the opposition to cursive script that some people demonstrate, mostly in the US. In Europe cursive script is the norm; block letter writing by an adult is considered a mark of poor education.

derbOac 5y ago

I feel sort of neutral about it. I always felt like it took me more time so I stopped using it. But with others I don't have much preference one way or another. I guess I prefer non-cursive? But some of it is very beautiful. There are a lot of children in my extended family, and at some point I noticed they were very confused by cursive, and saw it as a curiosity, almost like there was a secret alphabet adults used to use. When I asked around about it, I found out they were no longer being taught it, and then found articles about how it was disappearing from curricula. It's mostly interesting to me because it was such a big part of my writing education, and my teachers were so adamant about it, and it was so common. So it's strange to me to see it just disappear.

bdowling 5y ago

> In the right hands and with the right practice Also the right kind of pen. Cursive can be beautiful with a nib pen or some fountain pens, but it tends to be ugly with a ballpoint pen.