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Then envious people can work on themselves, as we've always understood envy to be a moral problem.

jl6 5y ago
Quite. I’m just proposing a mechanism. The solution could quite well be psychotherapy rather than communism.
Cederfjard 5y ago
Well, but is it possible that this is a very fundamental part of human psychology and thus not very easily overcome, especially on a societal level? Maybe we’re as hardwired to be stressed and anxious when we see someone else with more resources as we are to start looking for food when we’re hungry.
- civilized 5y ago
  Or maybe it's something people can and should get over, as many traditional moral systems have taught.
  - Cederfjard 5y ago
    And people should definitely stop raping and murdering each other, do you have a realistic plan for making that happen in the foreseeable future? You’re being very flippant about something which is extremely challenging, changing human behavior at scale. If you want to be pragmatic you can’t just sit and pout that people aren’t behaving as well as they could - unfortunately that’s something you most likely will just have to live with.
js8 5y ago
Yeah, don't be envious, man, just always take the little of what is offered, trying to negotiate better conditions for yourself is bad for your health. Do you know ultimatum game? There might be a good reason why envy exists.
- civilized 5y ago
  Feel free to try and negotiate better whatever for yourself. But if stress about someone else having more is your driver, I think you're suffering needlessly.
  - js8 5y ago
    My point was, what is envy, then, other than the motivational force behind trying to negotiate better for yourself? Most people have some form of it. The claim that "people should just learn not to be envious" is a classist BS, because without some form of envy, nobody would be motivated to ask for better remuneration. Drivers can negotiate too, through collective action. Of course they worry about billionaires, because billionaires worry about them in the first place - the billionaires invented Amazon or Uber, which employ these drivers and are the primary cause of their working conditions.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - civilized 5y ago
      If envy is just some motivating force then why should I care about it? The conversation was originally about unhealthy stress and damage to health due to others having more than you. Being motivated by the success of others or wanting to negotiate your comp is fine. But when people feel bad merely because others have more, they should not expect anyone else to feel bad for them or solve that for them. It's their own problem.
      - js8 5y ago
        Stress that you won't be able to pay bills or debts is NOT envy. You can have it even in a society where everybody is poor. That's why, in rich societies, envy is not the cause of it, but rather how society distributes its wealth is. And so it becomes a collective, not an individual, problem.
        5y ago

jl6 5y ago

Quite. I’m just proposing a mechanism. The solution could quite well be psychotherapy rather than communism.

Well, but is it possible that this is a very fundamental part of human psychology and thus not very easily overcome, especially on a societal level? Maybe we’re as hardwired to be stressed and anxious when we see someone else with more resources as we are to start looking for food when we’re hungry.

civilized 5y ago
Or maybe it's something people can and should get over, as many traditional moral systems have taught.
- Cederfjard 5y ago
  And people should definitely stop raping and murdering each other, do you have a realistic plan for making that happen in the foreseeable future? You’re being very flippant about something which is extremely challenging, changing human behavior at scale. If you want to be pragmatic you can’t just sit and pout that people aren’t behaving as well as they could - unfortunately that’s something you most likely will just have to live with.

js8 5y ago

Yeah, don't be envious, man, just always take the little of what is offered, trying to negotiate better conditions for yourself is bad for your health. Do you know ultimatum game? There might be a good reason why envy exists.

civilized 5y ago
Feel free to try and negotiate better whatever for yourself. But if stress about someone else having more is your driver, I think you're suffering needlessly.
- js8 5y ago
  My point was, what is envy, then, other than the motivational force behind trying to negotiate better for yourself? Most people have some form of it. The claim that "people should just learn not to be envious" is a classist BS, because without some form of envy, nobody would be motivated to ask for better remuneration. Drivers can negotiate too, through collective action. Of course they worry about billionaires, because billionaires worry about them in the first place - the billionaires invented Amazon or Uber, which employ these drivers and are the primary cause of their working conditions.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - civilized 5y ago
    If envy is just some motivating force then why should I care about it? The conversation was originally about unhealthy stress and damage to health due to others having more than you. Being motivated by the success of others or wanting to negotiate your comp is fine. But when people feel bad merely because others have more, they should not expect anyone else to feel bad for them or solve that for them. It's their own problem.
    - js8 5y ago
      Stress that you won't be able to pay bills or debts is NOT envy. You can have it even in a society where everybody is poor. That's why, in rich societies, envy is not the cause of it, but rather how society distributes its wealth is. And so it becomes a collective, not an individual, problem.
      - 5y ago