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I would note that there are centuries of political theory written on this topic with a famous document written in 1848. Unfortunately, most of this theory concl

I would note that there are centuries of political theory written on this topic with a famous document written in 1848. Unfortunately, most of this theory concludes that class war is required to create an equal society.

nopenopenopeno 5y ago
A far more informative document was written in 1894. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital
HideousKojima 5y ago
And when it fails to do so (and leaves behind a new mountain of skulls in the process), it "wasn't real communism" that time.
- tehjoker 5y ago
  That comparison always leaves out the larger mountains of skulls created created under capitalism, the Nazi regime for one, the 900k+ COVID deaths in the US, the intentional famine in Bengal [0], etc. It's a long list that is rarely considered. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-church...
  - HideousKojima 5y ago
    I love how tankies seem to think the only economic system apart from communism is capitalism. We have fascism with the Nazis and mercantilism with British colonial territories, but somehow it's all capitalism because it lets them pretend to win arguments without needing to actually learn how different economic systems work.
    - tehjoker 5y ago
      Capitalism means private ownership of the means of production. There are many ways to organize capitalism, but this is its essential feature. Likewise, there are many ways to organize socialism, where the means of production are owned collectively. Some may more more desirable than others. There have been fewer experiments with socialism than capitalism, and those that have existed have some good features and some bad features. There are some good features to capitalism, but it has long exhausted its progressive character. For example, its good at producing lots of consumer goods. Its weaknesses are an inexorable drive to imperialism, the subjugation of the working class, and a kind of environmental death drive where it can't stop itself.
Jensson 5y ago
Yet the best places to live for poor people didn't have class warfare.
gremlinsinc 5y ago
No, class war ...is an inevitability. Except the class being fought hardly knows it's at war. To create an equal society requires the classes to rise up and actually join the war for their own souls. The lower classes are too pre-occupied with survival, the elites have all the control, power, and are the ones pre-occupying them with modes for their survival (shitty jobs to pay exorbitant rents to get enough maybe for an iphone, and netflix subscription) so when you're done working 60 hours per week, you only have enough left over time to focus on distractions rather than a coup against the elites. The answer is more unions, more worker co-ops, and providing REAL market alternatives to capitalism in the terms of democratic / DAO style companies that give all employees shares based on input, and maybe even shares for consumers who are loyal to their brand... (like a 5 shares per hour worked, 1 share per dollar spent - upto 10k dollars spent/yr) ... then say there's Walmart, and Walgreens, and MCDonalds competitors in the syndicate of co-ops... all the money they earn are pooled, and maybe everyone w/ at least 10k yearly shares gets free healthcare for the next year, and dividends from a pool of 30% of revenue... These are still capitalist companies in the fact they're ran independently, and created by entrepreneurs they just have governing/managment aspects that give more power to the people who work there... it's a marriage if you will, and one that I think is the only way forward. It provides true dual power, but doesn't require a 'benevolent dictator' which is the evil of communism per se... Communism always turns to Oligarchy, but apparently so does democracy, however co-op owned companies can run more ethically with more care for employees and the environment, and eventually lobby congress for their behalf which is for the employee's behalf.

nopenopenopeno 5y ago

A far more informative document was written in 1894. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital

HideousKojima 5y ago

And when it fails to do so (and leaves behind a new mountain of skulls in the process), it "wasn't real communism" that time.

tehjoker 5y ago
That comparison always leaves out the larger mountains of skulls created created under capitalism, the Nazi regime for one, the 900k+ COVID deaths in the US, the intentional famine in Bengal [0], etc. It's a long list that is rarely considered. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-church...
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  I love how tankies seem to think the only economic system apart from communism is capitalism. We have fascism with the Nazis and mercantilism with British colonial territories, but somehow it's all capitalism because it lets them pretend to win arguments without needing to actually learn how different economic systems work.
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    Capitalism means private ownership of the means of production. There are many ways to organize capitalism, but this is its essential feature. Likewise, there are many ways to organize socialism, where the means of production are owned collectively. Some may more more desirable than others. There have been fewer experiments with socialism than capitalism, and those that have existed have some good features and some bad features. There are some good features to capitalism, but it has long exhausted its progressive character. For example, its good at producing lots of consumer goods. Its weaknesses are an inexorable drive to imperialism, the subjugation of the working class, and a kind of environmental death drive where it can't stop itself.

Jensson 5y ago

Yet the best places to live for poor people didn't have class warfare.

gremlinsinc 5y ago

No, class war ...is an inevitability. Except the class being fought hardly knows it's at war. To create an equal society requires the classes to rise up and actually join the war for their own souls. The lower classes are too pre-occupied with survival, the elites have all the control, power, and are the ones pre-occupying them with modes for their survival (shitty jobs to pay exorbitant rents to get enough maybe for an iphone, and netflix subscription) so when you're done working 60 hours per week, you only have enough left over time to focus on distractions rather than a coup against the elites. The answer is more unions, more worker co-ops, and providing REAL market alternatives to capitalism in the terms of democratic / DAO style companies that give all employees shares based on input, and maybe even shares for consumers who are loyal to their brand... (like a 5 shares per hour worked, 1 share per dollar spent - upto 10k dollars spent/yr) ... then say there's Walmart, and Walgreens, and MCDonalds competitors in the syndicate of co-ops... all the money they earn are pooled, and maybe everyone w/ at least 10k yearly shares gets free healthcare for the next year, and dividends from a pool of 30% of revenue... These are still capitalist companies in the fact they're ran independently, and created by entrepreneurs they just have governing/managment aspects that give more power to the people who work there... it's a marriage if you will, and one that I think is the only way forward. It provides true dual power, but doesn't require a 'benevolent dictator' which is the evil of communism per se... Communism always turns to Oligarchy, but apparently so does democracy, however co-op owned companies can run more ethically with more care for employees and the environment, and eventually lobby congress for their behalf which is for the employee's behalf.