10 ms·

In all healthcare systems some form of rationing occurs since there aren’t enough resources to provide the best care to everyone. A system that rations care ba

by syki 5y ago

In all healthcare systems some form of rationing occurs since there aren’t enough resources to provide the best care to everyone. A system that rations care based on ability to pay or on wether or not your employer is generous is immoral. It is also immoral to profit off of denying someone care. Tough decisions have to be made and financially rewarding a company by denying care is despicable.

BobbyJo 5y ago
> A system that rations care based on ability to pay... is immoral. You lost me there. What makes it immoral? Money is an asset allocation tool, so why is it morally wrong to use it for medicine the same way we do for food and housing? Genuine question. I have a hard time understanding what sets medicine apart from everything else when people think healthcare should be universally free, but not food, water, clothing, housing, etc. especially considering those other things are more directly necessary for survival.
- syki 5y ago
  Of course healthcare isn’t and can’t be free. Unless by free you mean free at the point of usage. I support government provided healthcare and government runs off of tax revenue. Denying a person cancer treatment for no other reason than because they can’t pay $x at the point of usage is an immoral system. An analogous situation occurs with federal courts. Those who can’t afford filing fees have those fees waived and those that can pay them do so. This is done because the court system recognizes that access to the court system based on the ability to pay at the point of usage is a bad system.
  - BobbyJo 5y ago
    That's a bad comparison. The filing fee is small compared medical treatment, and it's in support of the government itself. The cost of doing that for people is tiny and doesn't really take away from anyone else. Medicine is a scarce resource at this point, and, generally speaking, giving care to X often means Y won't get it. The fundamental problem with medical care is supply, lowering barriers for demand isn't a solution to that.
    - syki 5y ago
      The analogy is apt since it was an example of the idea that some people, thankfully, are aware that some services should not have their availability based on ability to pay at the point of usage. In the U.S. system denials of care by insurance companies are not done so another person can get said care. They are done to increase profit margins and profiting from denying someone care is immoral.
      - BobbyJo 5y ago
        > The analogy is apt since it was an example of the idea that some people, thankfully, are aware that some services should not have their availability based on ability to pay at the point of usage That last bit is exactly what we're in disagreement about, and I haven't seen a good case for it yet. > In the U.S. system denials of care by insurance companies are not done so another person can get said care True. > They are done to increase profit margins Indirectly, sure. Its a business where money out must be less than money in. > and profiting from denying someone care is immoral. Again, this is the disagreement, and I'm not really seeing a good argument for that being the case. Some people should be denied care. I don't see why performing a necessary function shouldn't be profitable, especially when it's beneficial to everyone in times of scarcity, like now.
        syki 5y ago
        Police, most roads, and certain aspects of the legal system are free at the point of usage. It’s bad to have for profit police, court system, and Air Force. Some things ought not be profit driven. It’s quite disconcerting that someone sees no problem with a person profiting from denying healthcare. I should not be able to enrich myself by denying you health care. Tough decisions need to be made and the motive for the decision should not be profit. I am not more important than you or anyone else. I don’t deserve health care before you just because I have more money. That’s a perverse idea. Unfortunately too many Americans embody the Bible’s warning regarding the love of money.
        BobbyJo 5y ago
- andi999 5y ago
  The demand price curve is different. If housing gets more expensive you could (although) difficult move into a smaller apartment, or different region. (Similiar with food up to a certain amount). This allows the market to find the best/right price by supply and demand. (I think this is called inelastic demand) If you have cancer though than basicall the market cannot find a price, and it would tend towards to: 'give me all you have'.
  - tryptophan 5y ago
    > If you have cancer though than basicall the market cannot find a price, and it would tend towards to: 'give me all you have'. Yes it can... there is more than one oncologist in the world. Competition exists. As for if youre talking about the chemo drugs, you don't have to use the latest-and-greatest on-patent treatment. There are now decades of drugs that are off patent. They may not be as good, but then again, it is your life so many choose to pay for the new better ones. If it was illegal to pay more for better drugs than they would never exist (and don't talk to me about government funding; not a single socialized medicine country has innovated any drug of value in the past 50 years, and yes, they do steal from us in the USA by taking our IP and not paying for it).
    - soneil 5y ago
      The first covid vaccines came out of the UK and Germany. Whoever told you we're just stealing from the US has their head firmly in the sand.
  - BobbyJo 5y ago
    > The demand price curve is different. If housing gets more expensive you could (although) difficult move into a smaller apartment, or different region. (Similiar with food up to a certain amount). This allows the market to find the best/right price by supply and demand. (I think this is called inelastic demand) Changing housing situations is exactly as easy as changing hospitals and emergency rooms no? Since the latter are mostly decided by where you live. In fact, most mid to large cities feature many hospitals near any given residence, so it is actually easier. I would also point out that the demand curve for housing, energy and food are far more inelastic than for medicine. > If you have cancer though than basicall the market cannot find a price, and it would tend towards to: 'give me all you have'. Why couldn't the market find a price? Cancer actually seems like the worse example possible. The people I've known who've been diagnosed with cancer have shopped around for care from many different hospitals. It would seem that cancer would be the perfect candidate for market forces to lower prices since a diagnosis generally affords a bit of time to find and decide on treatment options. Even in the extreme case of 'you have months to live' people tend to spend a few weeks collecting different opinions.
- mnhn1 5y ago
  I don't think it's inconsistent. The people who advocate for free healthcare would probably also advocate for other parts of a social safety net, like food banks, food stamp programs, free access to water, temporary housing for the homeless and programs to get them to permanent homes, etc. And indeed the US has many such services, though they are often overwhelmed, or performed through a complex set of nonprofits combining govt funds with donor money as best they can to provide good support. Sometimes they are overwhelmed specifically because of externalities related to the for-profit insurance healthcare system. The high and often unpredictable cost of any medical situation, means people with tight budgets become sicker before getting care, if they ever get it, leading to a higher percentage of bad outcomes, up to and including job loss and homelessness for the individual, and knock-on effects for the rest of their family. This puts extra pressure on the parts of the support system that do exist - those already mentioned, and, of course, the police, who end up getting called to many situations that could have been prevented by the people involved having better services to begin with, to meet their health, food, and housing needs.
  - BobbyJo 5y ago
    > don't think it's inconsistent. The people who advocate for free healthcare would probably also advocate for other parts of a social safety net, like food banks, food stamp programs, free access to water, temporary housing for the homeless and programs to get them to permanent homes, etc. Isn't it though? "This thing should be free for everyone all the time" is a lot different than "we should help people out a little if they're down on their luck". Temporary housing, food banks, etc are the latter, and I'm all for the same with medicine. The fact that food and housing are subject to markets makes it easier for organizations to carry out such missions, which is one of the barriers you mention in your second paragraph when you talk about the complexities of dealing with insurance companies.
    - mnhn1 5y ago
      People don't consume healthcare "all the time" the same way they do food, housing, water. Preventive healthcare is cheaper/less work than treating illnesses that have gotten more serious, leading to less total consumption of healthcare (and those other downstream resources impacted by people avoiding preventive care). Also "Free healthcare available to all" doesn't preclude a private market. The Govt Healthcare is not always timely, may not cover treatments people want, or cover certain elective surgeries. Some people will always choose to participate in a private insurance market that provides value above a baseline govt health plan.
mantas 5y ago
In countries with public healthcare it’s still based on ability to pay. You pay out of pocket and cut the queue, have decent time allotment with the doctor, get best medication available without money-saving algorithms etc.
- hallway_monitor 5y ago
  So the downsides don't affect the rich because they use a premium secondary market. That explains why so many US politicians support it.
  - mantas 5y ago
    Do they? I was under impression that all US politicians aside from Sanders support current system. Anyway… I think both systems are very similar in the end. Rich (or even middle class) gets great service in premium facilities. Average folks get OK service with some downsides, likely paying out of pocket in various ways. The only difference may be poor people coverage which is subsidized by upper tier payers. Who themselves may never use public service and go to premium only. Also, another major difference may be the big expensive procedures. Aside from the 1%, people would do the procedure in public hospital because it’s crazy expensive otherwise. But everything else leading up to it and recovery after it more likely to happen in premium market since it’s much more affordable.
- syki 5y ago
  In Canada private health clinics can not legally provide care that is covered by the Canada Health Act. EDIT: After further reading it appears that private health care is a murky area in some provinces. My above stated belief appears to be wrong at least in terms of how things actually work there. Here is my view. Private medical care should be banned.
  - mantas 5y ago
    Here in backwater Europe we had no private medicine for a long time. The outcome was massive healthcare black market. Semi-official price list you've to pay to nurses/doctors/etc to „premium“ care. On top of that, official medical staff wages were crap. People were forced either work for peanuts (IMO nurses and doctors jobs are damn hard and they have to be paid well), take money under table or... emigrate. Now we have mixed system and it's definitely better than it was before. Doctors gets paid well. Elite doctors tend to work 2-3 days in private clinics and then 2-3 days in public hospitals so you can still get hold of them for free. Those who have an inch for premium services can pay local&legal, so local economy wins.
tiahura 5y ago
Right. The rationing should be based on ability to lobby, and the decisions should be made by politicians and agency bureaucrats.

by syki 5y ago

BobbyJo 5y ago

> A system that rations care based on ability to pay... is immoral. You lost me there. What makes it immoral? Money is an asset allocation tool, so why is it morally wrong to use it for medicine the same way we do for food and housing? Genuine question. I have a hard time understanding what sets medicine apart from everything else when people think healthcare should be universally free, but not food, water, clothing, housing, etc. especially considering those other things are more directly necessary for survival.

syki 5y ago
Of course healthcare isn’t and can’t be free. Unless by free you mean free at the point of usage. I support government provided healthcare and government runs off of tax revenue. Denying a person cancer treatment for no other reason than because they can’t pay $x at the point of usage is an immoral system. An analogous situation occurs with federal courts. Those who can’t afford filing fees have those fees waived and those that can pay them do so. This is done because the court system recognizes that access to the court system based on the ability to pay at the point of usage is a bad system.
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  That's a bad comparison. The filing fee is small compared medical treatment, and it's in support of the government itself. The cost of doing that for people is tiny and doesn't really take away from anyone else. Medicine is a scarce resource at this point, and, generally speaking, giving care to X often means Y won't get it. The fundamental problem with medical care is supply, lowering barriers for demand isn't a solution to that.
  - syki 5y ago
    The analogy is apt since it was an example of the idea that some people, thankfully, are aware that some services should not have their availability based on ability to pay at the point of usage. In the U.S. system denials of care by insurance companies are not done so another person can get said care. They are done to increase profit margins and profiting from denying someone care is immoral.
    - BobbyJo 5y ago
      > The analogy is apt since it was an example of the idea that some people, thankfully, are aware that some services should not have their availability based on ability to pay at the point of usage That last bit is exactly what we're in disagreement about, and I haven't seen a good case for it yet. > In the U.S. system denials of care by insurance companies are not done so another person can get said care True. > They are done to increase profit margins Indirectly, sure. Its a business where money out must be less than money in. > and profiting from denying someone care is immoral. Again, this is the disagreement, and I'm not really seeing a good argument for that being the case. Some people should be denied care. I don't see why performing a necessary function shouldn't be profitable, especially when it's beneficial to everyone in times of scarcity, like now.
      - syki 5y ago
        Police, most roads, and certain aspects of the legal system are free at the point of usage. It’s bad to have for profit police, court system, and Air Force. Some things ought not be profit driven. It’s quite disconcerting that someone sees no problem with a person profiting from denying healthcare. I should not be able to enrich myself by denying you health care. Tough decisions need to be made and the motive for the decision should not be profit. I am not more important than you or anyone else. I don’t deserve health care before you just because I have more money. That’s a perverse idea. Unfortunately too many Americans embody the Bible’s warning regarding the love of money.
        BobbyJo 5y ago
andi999 5y ago
The demand price curve is different. If housing gets more expensive you could (although) difficult move into a smaller apartment, or different region. (Similiar with food up to a certain amount). This allows the market to find the best/right price by supply and demand. (I think this is called inelastic demand) If you have cancer though than basicall the market cannot find a price, and it would tend towards to: 'give me all you have'.
- tryptophan 5y ago
  > If you have cancer though than basicall the market cannot find a price, and it would tend towards to: 'give me all you have'. Yes it can... there is more than one oncologist in the world. Competition exists. As for if youre talking about the chemo drugs, you don't have to use the latest-and-greatest on-patent treatment. There are now decades of drugs that are off patent. They may not be as good, but then again, it is your life so many choose to pay for the new better ones. If it was illegal to pay more for better drugs than they would never exist (and don't talk to me about government funding; not a single socialized medicine country has innovated any drug of value in the past 50 years, and yes, they do steal from us in the USA by taking our IP and not paying for it).
  - soneil 5y ago
    The first covid vaccines came out of the UK and Germany. Whoever told you we're just stealing from the US has their head firmly in the sand.
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  > The demand price curve is different. If housing gets more expensive you could (although) difficult move into a smaller apartment, or different region. (Similiar with food up to a certain amount). This allows the market to find the best/right price by supply and demand. (I think this is called inelastic demand) Changing housing situations is exactly as easy as changing hospitals and emergency rooms no? Since the latter are mostly decided by where you live. In fact, most mid to large cities feature many hospitals near any given residence, so it is actually easier. I would also point out that the demand curve for housing, energy and food are far more inelastic than for medicine. > If you have cancer though than basicall the market cannot find a price, and it would tend towards to: 'give me all you have'. Why couldn't the market find a price? Cancer actually seems like the worse example possible. The people I've known who've been diagnosed with cancer have shopped around for care from many different hospitals. It would seem that cancer would be the perfect candidate for market forces to lower prices since a diagnosis generally affords a bit of time to find and decide on treatment options. Even in the extreme case of 'you have months to live' people tend to spend a few weeks collecting different opinions.
mnhn1 5y ago
I don't think it's inconsistent. The people who advocate for free healthcare would probably also advocate for other parts of a social safety net, like food banks, food stamp programs, free access to water, temporary housing for the homeless and programs to get them to permanent homes, etc. And indeed the US has many such services, though they are often overwhelmed, or performed through a complex set of nonprofits combining govt funds with donor money as best they can to provide good support. Sometimes they are overwhelmed specifically because of externalities related to the for-profit insurance healthcare system. The high and often unpredictable cost of any medical situation, means people with tight budgets become sicker before getting care, if they ever get it, leading to a higher percentage of bad outcomes, up to and including job loss and homelessness for the individual, and knock-on effects for the rest of their family. This puts extra pressure on the parts of the support system that do exist - those already mentioned, and, of course, the police, who end up getting called to many situations that could have been prevented by the people involved having better services to begin with, to meet their health, food, and housing needs.
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  > don't think it's inconsistent. The people who advocate for free healthcare would probably also advocate for other parts of a social safety net, like food banks, food stamp programs, free access to water, temporary housing for the homeless and programs to get them to permanent homes, etc. Isn't it though? "This thing should be free for everyone all the time" is a lot different than "we should help people out a little if they're down on their luck". Temporary housing, food banks, etc are the latter, and I'm all for the same with medicine. The fact that food and housing are subject to markets makes it easier for organizations to carry out such missions, which is one of the barriers you mention in your second paragraph when you talk about the complexities of dealing with insurance companies.
  - mnhn1 5y ago
    People don't consume healthcare "all the time" the same way they do food, housing, water. Preventive healthcare is cheaper/less work than treating illnesses that have gotten more serious, leading to less total consumption of healthcare (and those other downstream resources impacted by people avoiding preventive care). Also "Free healthcare available to all" doesn't preclude a private market. The Govt Healthcare is not always timely, may not cover treatments people want, or cover certain elective surgeries. Some people will always choose to participate in a private insurance market that provides value above a baseline govt health plan.

mantas 5y ago

In countries with public healthcare it’s still based on ability to pay. You pay out of pocket and cut the queue, have decent time allotment with the doctor, get best medication available without money-saving algorithms etc.

hallway_monitor 5y ago
So the downsides don't affect the rich because they use a premium secondary market. That explains why so many US politicians support it.
- mantas 5y ago
  Do they? I was under impression that all US politicians aside from Sanders support current system. Anyway… I think both systems are very similar in the end. Rich (or even middle class) gets great service in premium facilities. Average folks get OK service with some downsides, likely paying out of pocket in various ways. The only difference may be poor people coverage which is subsidized by upper tier payers. Who themselves may never use public service and go to premium only. Also, another major difference may be the big expensive procedures. Aside from the 1%, people would do the procedure in public hospital because it’s crazy expensive otherwise. But everything else leading up to it and recovery after it more likely to happen in premium market since it’s much more affordable.
syki 5y ago
In Canada private health clinics can not legally provide care that is covered by the Canada Health Act. EDIT: After further reading it appears that private health care is a murky area in some provinces. My above stated belief appears to be wrong at least in terms of how things actually work there. Here is my view. Private medical care should be banned.
- mantas 5y ago
  Here in backwater Europe we had no private medicine for a long time. The outcome was massive healthcare black market. Semi-official price list you've to pay to nurses/doctors/etc to „premium“ care. On top of that, official medical staff wages were crap. People were forced either work for peanuts (IMO nurses and doctors jobs are damn hard and they have to be paid well), take money under table or... emigrate. Now we have mixed system and it's definitely better than it was before. Doctors gets paid well. Elite doctors tend to work 2-3 days in private clinics and then 2-3 days in public hospitals so you can still get hold of them for free. Those who have an inch for premium services can pay local&legal, so local economy wins.

tiahura 5y ago

Right. The rationing should be based on ability to lobby, and the decisions should be made by politicians and agency bureaucrats.