5 ms·

Liking your country doesn't have to mean liking everything about it, and it doesn't have to mean not wanting to improve key quality of life metrics, which appea

Liking your country doesn't have to mean liking everything about it, and it doesn't have to mean not wanting to improve key quality of life metrics, which appears to be what this site is talking about. In fact, I would argue that thinking critically about areas where improvements can be made and pushing for those changes makes you more patriotic, not less. >... some people like to live in a country where you can... say whatever you want without fearing for your liberty... Germans would rather not have these things... I'm pretty sure Germany has roughly equivalent freedom of speech protection to the US.

tagoregrtst 5y ago
“Liking […] makes you more patriotic, not less“ Agreed that a patriot criticizes his country (btw, Im Western European, not American. Yet) Chesterton wrote: “My country, right or wrong,’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.” And I agree. Where I disagree is these metrics are that important, or even relevant. Especially since they are differentials of small numbers (however more likely I am to get shot at in the US compared to Germany its still a very rare event. Nor do I need to be told about Germany to know that there is poverty in the US. Instead, let’s criticize America on its own. There’s plenty of material, “ I'm pretty sure Germany has roughly equivalent freedom of speech protection to the US. ” No country has the legal speech protections the US has. No one is even in the same league. Thats why speech control is outsourced to private entities. The obvious example of German restrictions: try buying Mien Kampf or debating the veracity of the Holocaust. Or playing the original Wolfenstein with the real artwork in it. We all agree here (I hope!) that ppl arguing against the veracity of the Holocaust are factually wrong, that Mein Kampf is horrendous; but I don’t want to live in a country that imposes that on me. Germans are cool with that. Germans recognize that they need these restrictions placed upon them. Thats the beauty of nation states - nations can impose their own rules on themselves.
- danparsonson 5y ago
  > ...The obvious example of German restrictions... You're right that this is an obvious example, in fact I would say that it's too obvious and doesn't really make your point for you. Of course any right-thinking nation that had committed vast and terrible atrocities during a major conflict could be reasonably expected to try to suppress the kind of rhetoric that led to those things happening in the first place. I don't see that as a freedom of speech issue - rather it underscores the point that freedom of speech does not equate to the right to incite violence or cause harm. Or is this the point that you're making? That a modern Hitler could easily come to power in the US and that this is somehow desirable? I realise I'm being somewhat hyperbolic but if protection of the right to incite violence or cause harm is 'the league' that the US operates in, then I don't understand why any sane person would want that.
gattilorenz 5y ago
I'm also quite sure it's harder to fire someone in Germany for something they tweeted, and "opinions are my own" is not as popular as a disclaimer.
- tagoregrtst 5y ago
  You don’t loose your job, you just go to jail. Which is fine, Germans believe that they need mental straightjackets or they start invading neighbors. But those arent the rules I want were I live
  - gattilorenz 5y ago
    > Germans believe that they need mental straightjackets or they start invading neighbors. Are you implying that Americans don't regularly (as in, at least once every decade after the last World War) invade other countries even without those "mental straightjackets"? :) And yes, I know it's stupid to ascribe this to "Americans", but that's the same as saying that of Germans... perhaps we're both talking out of prejudice?
    - tagoregrtst 5y ago
      Americans stupidly invade countries literally out of the goodness of their hearts and naïveté of their minds. Proof of this is the type of propaganda needed to prod the naturally isolationist American people to war. (Americans mind you. not their leaders. The leaders are cutthroat internationalists) Germans invade their neighbors out of a feeling of superiority, or needing their “living space”. Again, look at the propaganda. (Not all! The German opposition to Hitler was heroic. But outnumbered) What drives Germans to war should be suppressed. What drives Americans to war is fundamentally good and should be augmented with proper history lessons in the hope they’ll learn to stop believing their leaders. And as disgusting as American wars are… you really want to compare American wars to the Germans’?
      - gattilorenz 5y ago
        Sorry, I find the implication that Germans have some form of natural propension towards war as ridiculous as they get. It's the kind of joke I would make with friends, like Woody Allen's urge of invade Poland if he listens to too much Wagner. I can laugh about it, but it's not an argument.

tagoregrtst 5y ago

“Liking […] makes you more patriotic, not less“ Agreed that a patriot criticizes his country (btw, Im Western European, not American. Yet) Chesterton wrote: “My country, right or wrong,’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.” And I agree. Where I disagree is these metrics are that important, or even relevant. Especially since they are differentials of small numbers (however more likely I am to get shot at in the US compared to Germany its still a very rare event. Nor do I need to be told about Germany to know that there is poverty in the US. Instead, let’s criticize America on its own. There’s plenty of material, “ I'm pretty sure Germany has roughly equivalent freedom of speech protection to the US. ” No country has the legal speech protections the US has. No one is even in the same league. Thats why speech control is outsourced to private entities. The obvious example of German restrictions: try buying Mien Kampf or debating the veracity of the Holocaust. Or playing the original Wolfenstein with the real artwork in it. We all agree here (I hope!) that ppl arguing against the veracity of the Holocaust are factually wrong, that Mein Kampf is horrendous; but I don’t want to live in a country that imposes that on me. Germans are cool with that. Germans recognize that they need these restrictions placed upon them. Thats the beauty of nation states - nations can impose their own rules on themselves.

danparsonson 5y ago
> ...The obvious example of German restrictions... You're right that this is an obvious example, in fact I would say that it's too obvious and doesn't really make your point for you. Of course any right-thinking nation that had committed vast and terrible atrocities during a major conflict could be reasonably expected to try to suppress the kind of rhetoric that led to those things happening in the first place. I don't see that as a freedom of speech issue - rather it underscores the point that freedom of speech does not equate to the right to incite violence or cause harm. Or is this the point that you're making? That a modern Hitler could easily come to power in the US and that this is somehow desirable? I realise I'm being somewhat hyperbolic but if protection of the right to incite violence or cause harm is 'the league' that the US operates in, then I don't understand why any sane person would want that.

gattilorenz 5y ago

I'm also quite sure it's harder to fire someone in Germany for something they tweeted, and "opinions are my own" is not as popular as a disclaimer.

tagoregrtst 5y ago
You don’t loose your job, you just go to jail. Which is fine, Germans believe that they need mental straightjackets or they start invading neighbors. But those arent the rules I want were I live
- gattilorenz 5y ago
  > Germans believe that they need mental straightjackets or they start invading neighbors. Are you implying that Americans don't regularly (as in, at least once every decade after the last World War) invade other countries even without those "mental straightjackets"? :) And yes, I know it's stupid to ascribe this to "Americans", but that's the same as saying that of Germans... perhaps we're both talking out of prejudice?
  - tagoregrtst 5y ago
    Americans stupidly invade countries literally out of the goodness of their hearts and naïveté of their minds. Proof of this is the type of propaganda needed to prod the naturally isolationist American people to war. (Americans mind you. not their leaders. The leaders are cutthroat internationalists) Germans invade their neighbors out of a feeling of superiority, or needing their “living space”. Again, look at the propaganda. (Not all! The German opposition to Hitler was heroic. But outnumbered) What drives Germans to war should be suppressed. What drives Americans to war is fundamentally good and should be augmented with proper history lessons in the hope they’ll learn to stop believing their leaders. And as disgusting as American wars are… you really want to compare American wars to the Germans’?
    - gattilorenz 5y ago
      Sorry, I find the implication that Germans have some form of natural propension towards war as ridiculous as they get. It's the kind of joke I would make with friends, like Woody Allen's urge of invade Poland if he listens to too much Wagner. I can laugh about it, but it's not an argument.