5 ms·

Tolerance for Risk May Contribute to Gender Pay Gap

10 points by rustoo 5y ago

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
It's just a completely stupid statistic all around. For example considering this risk aspect, it probably also means it falls prey to survivor bias and doesn't account for all the men who fail with their risky endeavours and have an income of zero (case in point: vastly more men than women are homeless, also vastly more men die on the job). It doesn't account for transfer payments like men paying for their wives housing, food clothes and so on (and paying so that they can spend time with their kids - I think even if a father has to give away most of his money in child alimony, in the wage gap statistic he would show up as a high earner and the mother as a low earner). It explicitly excludes jobs where people get union tariffs and hence all get paid the same. It doesn't account for differences in work hours. There are countless things wrong with it. It is just a misleading feminist propaganda thing. You could look at such a number and say "something is going on", but feminists want to jump to the conclusion that it is discrimination. I like to link to this freakonomics interview for further aspects of the wage gap. They talk to a woman who has researched the issue https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gende...
simonh 5y ago
I know this is a hot button topic. I’ve watched the Jordan Peterson videos about this, including his work with top level female executives to help them develop compensation negotiation strategies. I also understand the argument, based on the idea that men and women in the raw are exactly the same, that this is because women are indoctrinated into risk averse behaviour. From a practical point of view I have two daughters aged 17 and 18. They’re aiming for university and careers. How do I talk to them about this? What resources does anyone here know of that might help? Anyone in a similar situation, and how did you approach this? It’s a somewhat rhetorical question, I do talk to them about this stuff. I’ve just tried to explain and discuss the issues and help them come to their own conclusions. Toolikit, not solutions.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  But women and men are not the same. They may be similar on average, but the outliers generally sit on one side. That's why convicts and dropouts are mostly men. I have a daughter and two sons and I'm way more worried about my sons than my daughter. The main concern I have about my daughter is transgender erasing male / female boundaries and creating unsafe space for females. I'm sure she'll be fine whether she wants to have a career or focus on her family. My boys, on the other hand, they'll need to ignore a lot of weakening propaganda I didn't have to. Toxic masculinity and other crap touted by the media. The high percentage of women looking for partners earning more than them, couple with wages moving towards being equal (mainly due to women not taking maternity leave as much as in the past) also means it will be hard to date.
  - locopati 5y ago
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    They also have some careers actively being closed to them, because institutions may be incentivised to only hire women. An academic career is an unlikely bet at this point, for example. And in case people with only daughters think they will be fine because modern ideology only hurts women, I think they are wrong. As an example, suppose updated laws make marriage unattractive for men (huge downside risks of losing kids and income in a divorce, completely at the whim of the spouse). The in turn it would become more difficult for women who would prefer a traditional family arrangement to find men willing to take up the risk. Even if women prefer more "lose" relationships, they might find it more difficult to find suitable mates because of the high risk of false rape allegations. And so on. Traditionally male jobs being passed on to women might seem like a plus, but has the same issue. Maybe many women would be more happy with classic arrangements. Also there is the issue of being considered just a "token representative" and one's work being devalued.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  The "women negotiate less" theory is just one of many. I don't think it is actually accurate. For example engineers used to be notorious for being bad at negotiation and accepting underpaid jobs. Bookshelves in bookshops used to be full of career advice books (when bookshops still existed). So it is not as if men are naturals at it. (Also, women are more expensive for employers, because they have more sick days and are more likely to drop out completely once they have kids). Incentives however are completely different for women. They usually don't have to support a family. At most they have to support themselves if they remain single or childless. So they can choose "nicer" jobs in exchange for lower compensation. They can also simply drop out if they don't like a job or a profession. You can try to stir your daughters in another direction, but a valid question should be "why"? Are you sure it would make them more happy? Many women just decide to study literature, for example. Would they be happier with an engineering degree? Who knows? I personally will try to get my daughter interested, but in the end, it will be her choice. As an example, because I had such a discussion one with a paediatrician and a hospital manager. She was a bit annoyed that colleagues for example from radiology earned more. But it is nicer to work with children all day than to sit in front of machines all day, so more women (most women) choose to work with children. There certainly is nothing preventing women from becoming radiologists, but they simply choose differently. In fact few people choose radiology, so wages re higher due to supply and demand. I also know women who changed from becoming surgeons to some more family friendly specialty. You can not walk away in the middle of surgery to pick up your kids from school. That is not because of discrimination in the profession of surgery, but inherent to the job. Similar for truck driver. How would you make truck driving more family friendly? If you are on the road for a week to deliver goods to the other end of the continent, you won't be able to see your family in between. That is just inherent to the job. However, in the wage gap statistic you will just see "female physicians earn less than male physicians" without accounting for the different specialisations. It is all very misleading.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
"May". It seems obvious that it would play a role. Being good at selling yourself, too. And tons of other variables. That's why the pay gap is a myth, because it's meaningless. Beautiful convicts gets better sentences. Tall people earn more. Taking a single vertical is just political bs to win female votes. Besides, women in their 20s outearn men: a big factor in the studies claiming the pay gap exist is old senior men who started working when families could afford to have one parent at home. Those guys are probably rich and they have no female counterparts.

10 points by rustoo 5y ago

It's just a completely stupid statistic all around. For example considering this risk aspect, it probably also means it falls prey to survivor bias and doesn't account for all the men who fail with their risky endeavours and have an income of zero (case in point: vastly more men than women are homeless, also vastly more men die on the job). It doesn't account for transfer payments like men paying for their wives housing, food clothes and so on (and paying so that they can spend time with their kids - I think even if a father has to give away most of his money in child alimony, in the wage gap statistic he would show up as a high earner and the mother as a low earner). It explicitly excludes jobs where people get union tariffs and hence all get paid the same. It doesn't account for differences in work hours. There are countless things wrong with it. It is just a misleading feminist propaganda thing. You could look at such a number and say "something is going on", but feminists want to jump to the conclusion that it is discrimination. I like to link to this freakonomics interview for further aspects of the wage gap. They talk to a woman who has researched the issue https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gende...

simonh 5y ago

I know this is a hot button topic. I’ve watched the Jordan Peterson videos about this, including his work with top level female executives to help them develop compensation negotiation strategies. I also understand the argument, based on the idea that men and women in the raw are exactly the same, that this is because women are indoctrinated into risk averse behaviour. From a practical point of view I have two daughters aged 17 and 18. They’re aiming for university and careers. How do I talk to them about this? What resources does anyone here know of that might help? Anyone in a similar situation, and how did you approach this? It’s a somewhat rhetorical question, I do talk to them about this stuff. I’ve just tried to explain and discuss the issues and help them come to their own conclusions. Toolikit, not solutions.

jokethrowaway 5y ago
But women and men are not the same. They may be similar on average, but the outliers generally sit on one side. That's why convicts and dropouts are mostly men. I have a daughter and two sons and I'm way more worried about my sons than my daughter. The main concern I have about my daughter is transgender erasing male / female boundaries and creating unsafe space for females. I'm sure she'll be fine whether she wants to have a career or focus on her family. My boys, on the other hand, they'll need to ignore a lot of weakening propaganda I didn't have to. Toxic masculinity and other crap touted by the media. The high percentage of women looking for partners earning more than them, couple with wages moving towards being equal (mainly due to women not taking maternity leave as much as in the past) also means it will be hard to date.
- locopati 5y ago
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  They also have some careers actively being closed to them, because institutions may be incentivised to only hire women. An academic career is an unlikely bet at this point, for example. And in case people with only daughters think they will be fine because modern ideology only hurts women, I think they are wrong. As an example, suppose updated laws make marriage unattractive for men (huge downside risks of losing kids and income in a divorce, completely at the whim of the spouse). The in turn it would become more difficult for women who would prefer a traditional family arrangement to find men willing to take up the risk. Even if women prefer more "lose" relationships, they might find it more difficult to find suitable mates because of the high risk of false rape allegations. And so on. Traditionally male jobs being passed on to women might seem like a plus, but has the same issue. Maybe many women would be more happy with classic arrangements. Also there is the issue of being considered just a "token representative" and one's work being devalued.
kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
The "women negotiate less" theory is just one of many. I don't think it is actually accurate. For example engineers used to be notorious for being bad at negotiation and accepting underpaid jobs. Bookshelves in bookshops used to be full of career advice books (when bookshops still existed). So it is not as if men are naturals at it. (Also, women are more expensive for employers, because they have more sick days and are more likely to drop out completely once they have kids). Incentives however are completely different for women. They usually don't have to support a family. At most they have to support themselves if they remain single or childless. So they can choose "nicer" jobs in exchange for lower compensation. They can also simply drop out if they don't like a job or a profession. You can try to stir your daughters in another direction, but a valid question should be "why"? Are you sure it would make them more happy? Many women just decide to study literature, for example. Would they be happier with an engineering degree? Who knows? I personally will try to get my daughter interested, but in the end, it will be her choice. As an example, because I had such a discussion one with a paediatrician and a hospital manager. She was a bit annoyed that colleagues for example from radiology earned more. But it is nicer to work with children all day than to sit in front of machines all day, so more women (most women) choose to work with children. There certainly is nothing preventing women from becoming radiologists, but they simply choose differently. In fact few people choose radiology, so wages re higher due to supply and demand. I also know women who changed from becoming surgeons to some more family friendly specialty. You can not walk away in the middle of surgery to pick up your kids from school. That is not because of discrimination in the profession of surgery, but inherent to the job. Similar for truck driver. How would you make truck driving more family friendly? If you are on the road for a week to deliver goods to the other end of the continent, you won't be able to see your family in between. That is just inherent to the job. However, in the wage gap statistic you will just see "female physicians earn less than male physicians" without accounting for the different specialisations. It is all very misleading.

jokethrowaway 5y ago

"May". It seems obvious that it would play a role. Being good at selling yourself, too. And tons of other variables. That's why the pay gap is a myth, because it's meaningless. Beautiful convicts gets better sentences. Tall people earn more. Taking a single vertical is just political bs to win female votes. Besides, women in their 20s outearn men: a big factor in the studies claiming the pay gap exist is old senior men who started working when families could afford to have one parent at home. Those guys are probably rich and they have no female counterparts.