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I think it is more a fundamental philosophical problem with Ethereum. They have fascinating ideas and workarounds for all sorts of issues, but in the end they k

I think it is more a fundamental philosophical problem with Ethereum. They have fascinating ideas and workarounds for all sorts of issues, but in the end they keep layering complex solutions on more complex solutions. Maybe a bit like enterprise software, just add another abstraction layer...

Gigachad 5y ago
The problem is that irreversible transactions are just bad. There is no way around it. Crypto is broken at the most fundamental level. This kind of fuckup could not happen with regular banking and if you somehow did mess up you can almost always have your money recovered. There is no way to just black hole it never to be seen again.
- tromp 5y ago
  Some cryptocurrencies make it impossible to black hole funds by requiring the recipient to prove they can spend the money they're about to receive before they receive it. Needless to say, these cryptocurrencies do not feature smart contracts.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Afaik bank transactions are also non-reversible. I don't think that is the main issue, although certainly it is a problem. If it bothers you, you could probably also go through some service that insures your transactions and gives you a degree of reversibility.
  - pirate787 5y ago
    A service...like...a bank ?!?
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      Sure, if it is important to you? But I think there are also smart contracts/escrow services that require you to do additional things besides pushing "send". The classic is for a trade, and the receiver has to confirm they received the stuff before the money is released. Afaik "traditional" companies like ebay also struggle with that kind of thing.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    I am unaware of any country where this is true. Many countries have limits on how / when transactions can be recovered but AFAIK there is nowhere where bank transfers are absolutely final with no recourse.
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      In my country (Germany) afaik if you transfer money, the bank is not guaranteed to be able to get it back (if it has already processed it). There are other forms, for example other people can withdraw from your account and you can contest it within a certain time frame.
oblio 5y ago
The problem is, they have a fundamentally simple concept that solved the double spend and trust problems for a decentralized (sort of currency). That part we kind of figured out, maybe it's ok, albeit super slow and power intensive, but let's put that aside for a while. But is there a solid mathematical and cryptographical basis for everything else layered on top? I don't get that impression, it just looks like they're just plugging gaping holes because there's a gold rush to be continued! If they're just rebuilding a crappier version of the global financial system, there's no point in the rest of us following them.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  I went to some workshops when Ethereum was developed (sadly I decided against investing in the ICO because some aspects didn't convince me or I didn't understand them well enough). Even back then the discussion was that they were trying to do too much and it would be difficult to make it work reliably. Bitcoin deliberately chose a more conservative approach. Bitcoin also actually has a scripting language and allows for smart contracts, but they were much slower with unlocking its features for real. (I don't know the current state of it). Just to say, it really doesn't make sense to judge "crypto" by the state of Ethereum. There are different philosophies, different approaches, different people.
  - oblio 5y ago
    Domains where the basics are still being actively researched should never be part of the backbone of human society, though. Maybe they'll find solutions. Cool, let them put those solutions in practice in 2040 when all the bugs have been worked out.
    - triangleman 5y ago
      Frankly that is the best case scenario for crypto. It's similar to the dot com bubble in 1999 actually, it's 20 years later and the internet is finally somewhat useful and intergrated into our lives. Originally it was just a bubble inflated with ad revenue inflated with investor money
telxosser 5y ago
It seems to me the philosophical mistake is that banking and financial system regulations came about randomly. As if these are just unintended software bugs. As if there was no reason for the regulations. So all this complexity to get around regulations but you are going to run into the reasons this regulation came about at some scale.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  I'm not convinced the government regulations around finance are a net win. Might often just be wishful thinking by politicians, just decree things have to be in some specific way, rather than tackling the root causes for issues.

Gigachad 5y ago

The problem is that irreversible transactions are just bad. There is no way around it. Crypto is broken at the most fundamental level. This kind of fuckup could not happen with regular banking and if you somehow did mess up you can almost always have your money recovered. There is no way to just black hole it never to be seen again.

tromp 5y ago
Some cryptocurrencies make it impossible to black hole funds by requiring the recipient to prove they can spend the money they're about to receive before they receive it. Needless to say, these cryptocurrencies do not feature smart contracts.
kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Afaik bank transactions are also non-reversible. I don't think that is the main issue, although certainly it is a problem. If it bothers you, you could probably also go through some service that insures your transactions and gives you a degree of reversibility.
- pirate787 5y ago
  A service...like...a bank ?!?
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    Sure, if it is important to you? But I think there are also smart contracts/escrow services that require you to do additional things besides pushing "send". The classic is for a trade, and the receiver has to confirm they received the stuff before the money is released. Afaik "traditional" companies like ebay also struggle with that kind of thing.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  I am unaware of any country where this is true. Many countries have limits on how / when transactions can be recovered but AFAIK there is nowhere where bank transfers are absolutely final with no recourse.
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    In my country (Germany) afaik if you transfer money, the bank is not guaranteed to be able to get it back (if it has already processed it). There are other forms, for example other people can withdraw from your account and you can contest it within a certain time frame.

oblio 5y ago

The problem is, they have a fundamentally simple concept that solved the double spend and trust problems for a decentralized (sort of currency). That part we kind of figured out, maybe it's ok, albeit super slow and power intensive, but let's put that aside for a while. But is there a solid mathematical and cryptographical basis for everything else layered on top? I don't get that impression, it just looks like they're just plugging gaping holes because there's a gold rush to be continued! If they're just rebuilding a crappier version of the global financial system, there's no point in the rest of us following them.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
I went to some workshops when Ethereum was developed (sadly I decided against investing in the ICO because some aspects didn't convince me or I didn't understand them well enough). Even back then the discussion was that they were trying to do too much and it would be difficult to make it work reliably. Bitcoin deliberately chose a more conservative approach. Bitcoin also actually has a scripting language and allows for smart contracts, but they were much slower with unlocking its features for real. (I don't know the current state of it). Just to say, it really doesn't make sense to judge "crypto" by the state of Ethereum. There are different philosophies, different approaches, different people.
- oblio 5y ago
  Domains where the basics are still being actively researched should never be part of the backbone of human society, though. Maybe they'll find solutions. Cool, let them put those solutions in practice in 2040 when all the bugs have been worked out.
  - triangleman 5y ago
    Frankly that is the best case scenario for crypto. It's similar to the dot com bubble in 1999 actually, it's 20 years later and the internet is finally somewhat useful and intergrated into our lives. Originally it was just a bubble inflated with ad revenue inflated with investor money

telxosser 5y ago

It seems to me the philosophical mistake is that banking and financial system regulations came about randomly. As if these are just unintended software bugs. As if there was no reason for the regulations. So all this complexity to get around regulations but you are going to run into the reasons this regulation came about at some scale.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
I'm not convinced the government regulations around finance are a net win. Might often just be wishful thinking by politicians, just decree things have to be in some specific way, rather than tackling the root causes for issues.